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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 09:50:59 -0300
Message-ID: <CADK1yX+ONsCUt7ubrg3da5Dua7437JhgR6fO3_78=Rx9xiNJpw@mail.gmail.com>
To: autaut03@gmail.com
Cc: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>, php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ed93205f90ef383"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Future stability of PHP?
From: deleugyn@gmail.com (Deleu)

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On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 5:40=E2=80=AFAM Alex Wells <autaut03@gmail.com> wro=
te:

> On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 6:10=E2=80=AFAM Deleu <deleugyn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't want to use those weird stuff, but I'm
>> doing the best I can to replace every single line of old code that has
>> been
>> written in an era that "best practices for PHP development" were not wha=
t
>> you and I know today.
>>
>
> I still do not understand why you're expecting the whole PHP project to
> put in enormous efforts to keep the backwards compatibility and solve you=
r
> problems (temporarily) instead of you doing so. What's stopping you from
> using the last supported PHP version by that codebase and fixing or, wors=
t
> case scenario, rewriting it if you wish, while on that (non latest) PHP
> version? What causes the desperation to update to the latest PHP? Is it n=
ew
> features or security fixes, or both?
>

I don't *expect* the whole PHP project to do anything. Let me start by
bringing up a quote:

> [...] your thoughtful insight on how language changes [...] will help
shape proposals in a much more significant way.
Disclaimer: This quote is taken out of context, the original message can be
found here: https://externals.io/message/110936#110937

As I've mentioned here before, I've seen a few folks bring up the message
that I see on this quote as: Voting rights are not necessary to contribute
to PHP Internals. PHP is an extremely large ecosystem and bringing
community/user voices to internals can greatly help developers understand
how the language is being used and how proposals can be shaped to help
address concerns that are made aware. I'm not voicing my concerns in the
hopes of making my problems your problems and that the PHP core developers
should fix it for me. I have been going through a rewrite for the last 6
years and I expect to be done with it in the next 5. Every year we need to
go back to the legacy spaghetti and upgrade it for security reasons. It's
busywork and adds no real value to us. We still do it and we will keep
doing it no matter what. But in the course of doing so, I lost coworkers to
Typescript with a reasoning that it doesn't make sense to rewrite our
product in a language that will keep breaking the codebase constantly. I'm
not here to discuss the merits of their decision because if I 100% agreed
with that decision, I wouldn't be here, I would be long gone and developing
Typescript fulltime by now. But in my little bubble, losing highly talented
PHP developers to Typescript has been a recurring situation and that loss
of community members saddens me.

So if you could please read my message as "here's what has happened in a
small corner of the PHP community that is directly related to what OP has
mentioned at the start of the thread (PHP stability). Maybe this is not new
information to any of you here and there's nothing that can be improved on
it unless someone drops 8 digits of money on the PHP project. Maybe that is
a price that PHP has been willing to pay to keep on doing what it currently
is doing. Or maybe there are some interesting things that can be taken into
consideration. Do what you will with my participation. The only expectation
I had when I joined this discussion was respect and that was almost
completely met.

--=20
Marco Deleu

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