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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 20:44:24 -0300
Message-ID: <CADK1yXK85kUV2D5tcs2eCbFcEnDxXiGsm2qrhkxjAwpMZz7sUg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kamil Tekiela <tekiela246@gmail.com>
Cc: Dan Liebner <dliebner@gmail.com>, Stephan Soller <stephan.soller@helionweb.de>, 
	PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Future stability of PHP?
From: deleugyn@gmail.com (Deleu)

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On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 7:10=E2=80=AFPM Kamil Tekiela <tekiela246@gmail.com>=
 wrote:

> > But the cost is catastrophic. If you have a legacy codebase hanging ove=
r
> your head you probably know how hard it is to upgrade it.
>
> I wonder about this every time I hear this claim. What exactly changed in
> PHP 8.0 that made the upgrade path so difficult? The upgrade to PHP 9 may
> be a little more difficult because of some of the recent deprecations, bu=
t
> that's still years ahead of us. So what's exactly driving people away fro=
m
> PHP 8? Why is the adoption dwindling?
>
> I'd rather say that the roadblocks people are facing in upgrading legacy
> projects are not specific to PHP 8, but rather a technical debt acquired
> over the past 10-15 years. Even if nothing would change in PHP 8, people
> would still complain about the upgrade because of unrelated reasons. But
> please prove me wrong. Is there actually any change in PHP 8.0 that is a
> major source of work?
>
> If PHP went in the wrong direction, let's suggest something to fix it. If
> there are no suggestions for improvement then what are people complaining
> about?
>
>
> Regards,
> Kamil
>

Here are the top-of-my-head most relevant stuff I've read over the years on
the matter.

https://yoast.com/developer-blog/the-2020-wordpress-and-php-8-compatibility=
-report/
https://markbakeruk.net/2022/05/22/php-8-2-the-release-of-deprecations/
https://24daysindecember.net/2022/12/06/evolving-php/
https://24daysindecember.net/2022/12/19/maintenance-art/
https://mobile.twitter.com/jrf_nl/status/1459221549429542920
https://24daysindecember.net/2020/12/21/a-perfect-storm/
https://mobile.twitter.com/jrf_nl/status/1558589727766417411

Unfortunately I couldn't find where, but I remember reading that PHP 7.2
deprecation of non-countable types was one of the biggest "busywork"
generator of the PHP 7 series. It made an extremely large impact at public
and private projects across the world for something with questionable
benefits.
https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration72.incompatible.php#migration72.inco=
mpatible.warn-on-non-countable-types

Over the course of PHP 7 and 8, there were significant concerns on how
problematic PHP deprecations and breaking changes were. Now we're starting
to see the result of such concerns being ignored. This isn't the first time
someone mentions on PHP internals that it's getting harder and harder to
stay with PHP, but it's never really received with an open mind. It's
either "you don't have to run deprecation-free code" or "you've had years
to get rid of that deprecation error, tough luck if you didn't".

I love PHP and I built my career around it. I have zero interest in
starting from scratch in another language, but I've lost count on how many
projects, friends and companies around me have already made the switch to
Typescript. It's getting harder and harder to argue in favour of staying
with PHP.



--=20
Marco Deleu

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