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Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2023 01:13:56 +0100
Cc: PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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To: Dmitry Stogov <dmitrystogov@gmail.com>,
 Max Kellermann <max+php@blarg.de>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP code refactoring (was: include cleanup)
From: bobwei9@hotmail.com (Bob Weinand)

Hey Max and Dmitry,

> Am 28.02.2023 um 23:34 schrieb Dmitry Stogov <dmitrystogov@gmail.com>:
>=20
> On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 1:21=E2=80=AFAM Max Kellermann <max+php@blarg.de> =
wrote:
>=20
>> On 2023/02/28 22:31, Dmitry Stogov <dmitrystogov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/0270a1e54c0285fa3c89ee2b0120073ef=
57ab5fa
>>=20
>> This kind of change was favored by a supermajority.
>>=20
>> You argue that this supermajority vote is irrelevant, and formally it
>> indeed is, but pondering about formalities is kind of ignorant against
>> the now well-known community opinion.
>>=20
>>> https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/b98f18e7c3838cf587a1b6d0f033b89e9=
909c79d
>>=20
>> No vote was made on this, therefore this doesn't violate any community
>> rules, does it?
>>=20
>=20
> Please reread https://wiki.php.net/RFC/voting#voting
> RFC is accepted by a supermajority of the primary vote.
> The secondary votes may be used to make decisions about implementation
> details.
>=20
> Thanks. Dmitry.

In this case, while the primary concern of the RFC was rejected, I think it=
's pretty clear, that there was a supermajority for something specific.
I do agree, that the topic, given hat it conflicts with the rules, a mail t=
o internals on that topic should have been sent.
I did vote no on that topic, however I still think there was some mandate b=
y the community that this is wanted.
I would thus not make too much of a fuss on these grounds about the splitti=
ng.

>>=20
>> If you think this should be reverted, explain why.
>>=20
>>> https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/42577c6b6b7577c57c161ee4a74cb1933=
82bf1e0
>>=20
>> Favored by supermajority, see above.
>>=20
>>> https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/c7637ed1c03f556c6fb65884cfc5bfea4=
920b1c7
>>=20
>> No vote, no rule violation, see above.

This is no violation and I think Dmitrys tone was a bit too accusing for th=
at. But I also strongly disagree with that change.
Let's revert it. Quickly seeing which number is which type is quite valuabl=
e for debugging.
By now I know most numbers by heart, but most people won't.

>>> https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/371ae12d890f1887f79b7e2a32f808b45=
95e5f60
>>=20
>> As you see in the commit message, this implements an (unwritten) rule
>> cited by Nikita Popov (which is now written as of
>> https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/10630).  I personally don't agree
>> with this rule (there's a thread on this mailing list about it), and I
>> would favor reverting this commit - I only submitted this trying to
>> help with implementing a rule even though I don't agree with it.
>>=20
>> If this gets reverted, then https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/10630
>> should be reverted as well.  Again, not my opinion, I'm just trying to
>> help implement somebody else's opinion.

No, it should not. It makes a lot of sense.
It's however not a hard rule, but a guideline.

Applying these changes to ZEND_API though always shall be evaluated with du=
e care.
In this specific instance, a fairly new API I think nobody uses yet, it's s=
ort of acceptable.
I wouldn't mind reverting it though

>>=20
>> Max
>>=20


Max, while it's nice to see a couple cleanups in the PHP codebase, I would =
like to ask you to be a bit less quick at moving things around.
There's value in having a codebase evaluate slowly. Obviously not at the co=
st of progress, new features etc..
Keep in mind, that at least extension authors will need to work with the ph=
p-src codebase of version 8.2 until probably 7 years in the future (basical=
ly until PHP is EOL on all Linux distributions). They will appreciate not l=
ooking at a vastly different codebases.
Finally, these sorts of code moves are also making a git blame harder to tr=
ack back.

Thanks,
Bob=