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Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 07:30:24 +0500
Message-ID: <CAC_PL4xt9rnfdt8+CywU6J7FrMvT=B41Tpn0EvWrHMoD=rQCdQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Please allow an out of readonly properties
From: office.hamzaahmad@gmail.com (Hamza Ahmad)

Hello,

If we keep the idea of using reflection aside, I still have a reason
to consider readonly flag for private properties. There are two main
uses I consider of readonly properties: prevention of property
modification from the public scope and the securing the property from
losing an important handle. What if the properties are set readonly
with the private scope, so they are secured from getting modified,
even within a class. IF it is a protected and read only property, it
can also be further secured in sub classes.

Internals, I want to appreciate Andreas for choosing a considerate
tone for communicating the opinion that is different from the opinion
shared above. What if we all at least try and adjust the tone like
Andreas has done?

Regards

Hamza


On 12/4/22, Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org> wrote:
> Hey there
>
> On 03.12.22 23:55, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
>> They refuse to compromise even on documentation issues. I am totally
>> helpless. Not sure what could be done?
>
> When people design their systems and use final, private or readonly,
> they have a reason for that. They have a plan on how their library
> should be used and also how their library should not be used.That is the
> API that is exposed via public methods that is described in the
> documentation.
>
> When *your* code can only make use of a library by tweaking these
> constraints, you are using the library in a way that is not intended by
> the authors.
>
> There can be two reasons to that: Either you know exactly what you are
> doing and you are willing to risk that the way you are using said
> library might break with every patch version as the internal workings
> might change.
>
> HERE BE DRAGONS: I sometimes actually need to do that (even with a
> library I wrote myself) but instead of using reflection I then tend to
> use monkey-patching in that case and actually rewrite the code of the
> lib on installation. That way the execution is faster as I do not rely
> on reflection but can access a public property directly.
>
> Or - and that is most of the time the case - you are using the library
> wrong or even using the wrong library.
>
> And as you already contacted the authors and they declined your request
> to change their API, the chances are high, that you are using their
> Library in an unintended way.
>
> In that case you should reconsider what you are doing. Am I using the
> right library? Why could I be using the library wrongly? How can I
> change my code to use the provided API of the library?
>
>
> In the end it always boils down to: Check whether your usecase is what
> the library is intended to solve. And if there is no way around
> rewriting upstream code: You are on your own! You can not rely upon
> anything. Not even language features. You are not using upstream code,
> you are abusing it.
>
> My 0.02 =E2=82=AC
>
> Cheers
>
> Andreas
>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 2:48 PM Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Talk to the designers then: bringing your own political issues up to th=
e
>>> programming language/tooling only makes it worse long-term, for everyon=
e
>>> =F0=9F=98=9B
>>>
>>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2022, 23:45 Karoly Negyesi, <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do not have the luxury of designing my own system. I am forced to us=
e
>>>> upstream. I can't help it and given the history of private usage and
>>>> the
>>>> refusal on relaxing them I do not see this improving with the readonly=
.
>>>> At
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 2:42 PM Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Terrible idea: reflection is mostly introspection tooling, and doesn'=
t
>>>>> really bend the rules of the type system, other than crossing scope
>>>>> (it
>>>>> "sees" more).
>>>>>
>>>>> Please consider designing your system to consider the constraints of
>>>>> `readonly` properties, or design the constraints to fit your system
>>>>> instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marco Pivetta
>>>>>
>>>>> https://twitter.com/Ocramius
>>>>>
>>>>> https://ocramius.github.io/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 23:39, Karoly Negyesi <karoly@negyesi.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If push comes to shove, private properties can be changed with
>>>>>> reflection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Readonly properties can't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please add a readonly toggle to reflection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karoly Negyesi
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
> --
>                                                                ,,,
>                                                               (o o)
> +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
> | Andreas Heigl                                                       |
> | mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0=
23'58" |
> | https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
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