Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:116036 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 91011 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2021 11:27:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO php-smtp4.php.net) (45.112.84.5) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2021 11:27:35 -0000 Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD54180511 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on php-smtp4.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-ASN: AS14061 46.101.128.0/17 X-Spam-Virus: No X-Envelope-From: Received: from mail.stella-maris.solutions (mail.stella-maris.solutions [46.101.232.159]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.187] (heigl.gw.tgnet.de [80.72.250.242]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.stella-maris.solutions (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5755A80ED6; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:06:29 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=heigl.org; s=mail; t=1631534789; bh=cyzNIMYXq3R+F4PI5ABX/++VuBn/QhVBgfdOZYIejl8=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=OFykCHxwpVOX3BEjzcgRISfCThPkL89FLv9+VvmxXFVGnx38hX5ywgmUQLhY5gKgl 0SMeWnM/D3DiqqynwYlMfpKGEIIPLe9DBvINTQqY6annXbmHD1bCSYV3Wk0ZC+mJzf TrLNf2V+PQ2j0K1/KgYaOMC9BfncnMeRiW2HZCZvEnRYSwK9tvMbQqAAuQ5I7zQRYZ oVtChCbv6vwFNmT9TsRs20Ptf4fhz8aZu+j2TnUx6jObH00f89bUQPh3/XCGtDdbgo EKQv7UCMbVgCIzNuYM9aoP3KM3DulU1ZvSXVwGXUJ1LOZxPX4bbrp+dZOM94Um1/YL Gbd+TKpVzKiGQ== To: Hans Henrik Bergan , PHP internals References: <9ECA71F4-F57A-4184-9713-0EF8B7131F97@php.net> Message-ID: <9422892e-9d6a-edf7-47e9-ce6cf91b65bc@heigl.org> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:06:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Crox5EbEbf3BbCzovmf3JhNchXOERhjIx" Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] DateTimeZone silently falls back to UTC when providing seconds From: andreas@heigl.org (Andreas Heigl) --Crox5EbEbf3BbCzovmf3JhNchXOERhjIx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ROrwi8taIDuQIC8rME1I3gFNuaryIC1Nq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Andreas Heigl To: Hans Henrik Bergan , PHP internals Message-ID: <9422892e-9d6a-edf7-47e9-ce6cf91b65bc@heigl.org> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] DateTimeZone silently falls back to UTC when providing seconds References: <9ECA71F4-F57A-4184-9713-0EF8B7131F97@php.net> In-Reply-To: --ROrwi8taIDuQIC8rME1I3gFNuaryIC1Nq Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D2D1F1B42E8C0941C1BC41D1" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D2D1F1B42E8C0941C1BC41D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey On 13.09.21 13:32, Hans Henrik Bergan wrote: >> What use-case does that serve? >=20 > if some country want to change their timezone for whatever reason, to s= ome > timezone that didn't exist previously, could happen at any time really I'm well aware that that could happen at any time really. And I'm well=20 aware that "at any time" also can mean "By the way, we changed 14 days ag= o". But what does that mean? That means that there are different possibilitie= s: 1. The change was announced well in advance and therefore there is a=20 TZDB release that already reflects that change. So whatever timezone we=20 are talking about: The modification is already available and can be used = via the [continent]/[city] identifier. And if we would allow all=20 existing offsets to be used, that one would also be available. 2. The change was not announced well in advance, so that there is no=20 TZDB release that reflects that change when it goes "live". You PHP=20 application is the least concern you have. Because the change is not=20 reflected *anywhere*. Not on your server, not on your database, not on=20 the users mobiles not on the users desktops, not in their smartwatches:=20 nowhere.* Yes: You would then be able to allow people to enter the=20 offset instead of letting them comfortably select a location near them=20 and extrapolate the timezone (or offset if it must be) from that. But=20 you are then handling data that is not officially registered, could=20 possibly change and might break in the future due to some differences=20 that the official sources defined but your user didn't know about. That=20 is a rabbit hole that I would not want to get into and that we should=20 not encourage to get into. And which is currently open and seems to be=20 in need of fixing. For completeness sake there is a further option: The change was=20 announced well in advance but you did not yet update your PHP-version or = the timezonedb pecl package. Do so! Preferably the former but if that is = not an option at least the later! So my question still stands: What use-case does it serve to allow offsets that are not reflected in=20 the TZDB? Again: Just my 0.02 =E2=82=AC Cheers Andreas * That almost happened some years ago. IIRC the government actually=20 postponed the change so the TZDB and all the upstream vendors could react= =2E >=20 > On Sun, 12 Sept 2021 at 13:06, Andreas Heigl wrote:= >=20 >> Hey Benjamin, Hey All >> >> On 11.09.21 23:58, Benjamin Morel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Before doing so, shouldn't we discuss whether it makes sense to acc= ept >>>>> a >>>>> time-zone offset with seconds, when the granularity seems to be 15 >>>>> mins? >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UTC_time_offsets >>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=94 Benjamin >>>> >>>> No need. Early timezone offsets in the timezone database are in LMT >> (local >>>> mean time), which have second granularity. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> Derick >>> >>> >>> Hi, sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but now that this bug >>> has been fixed in PHP 8.0.1= 0, I >> can >>> see that seconds have been forbidden from DateTimeZone altogether: >>> >>> https://3v4l.org/QpSln >>> >>> Before forbidding seconds in brick/date-time's *TimeZoneOffset* as we= ll >>> (and going against JSR-310, which this library was derived from), can= I >>> please know why this decision was made, when as I understand it, this= >> goes >>> against your statement above? >> >> For me the more interesting question is: "Why would one allow to creat= e >> any arbitrary Timezone-object using any offset at all?" >> >> Currently it is even possible to declare a Timezone Object with an >> Offset that has never been used anywhere on the globe. So for example >> `new DateTimezone(`+11:32`) is completely valid from a coding point of= >> view but not from a timezone point of view. What use-case does that se= rve? >> >> If one has to create a timezone-object for an existing timezone one ca= n >> create that either via `new DateTimezone('Continent/Whatever')` or via= >> `new DateTimezone('Etc/GMT+XX')` or via `new DateTimezone('PST')`. >> >> This does currently not support creating offset-based timezone-objects= >> for areas such as Nepal or India that use an offset that currently can= 't >> be declared via the `Etc`-Identifiers. >> >> So a different approach would be to only support type 1 offsets that a= re >> known to the TZDB. Everything else (including arbitrary seconds) shoul= d >> result in an exception. >> >> So I can understand to not allow arbitrary seconds at all. But IMO we >> should then also not allow arbitrary minutes also. >> >> But that's just my 0.02 =E2=82=AC >> >> Cheers >> >> Andreas >> -- >> ,,, >> (o o) >> +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-= + >> | Andreas Heigl = | >> | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2= =B023'58" | >> | https://andreas.heigl.org = | >> +---------------------------------------------------------------------= + >> | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas = | >> +---------------------------------------------------------------------= + >> >=20 --=20 ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0= 23'58" | | https://andreas.heigl.org | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------D2D1F1B42E8C0941C1BC41D1 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