Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:115889 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 70604 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2021 04:06:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost.localdomain) (76.75.200.58) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2021 04:06:12 -0000 To: internals@lists.php.net References: <48D54138-2930-4935-B979-9A9DE9B403F1@gmail.com> <828C15A4-86D3-43EE-960F-05B4EA7DEB23@gmail.com> Autocrypt: addr=ramsey@php.net; keydata= mQINBGCHQTYBEAC6IU9aXEpVuLJNAzXwL7q9Vt1PkxJHr7kJynUg/3ISrOdJy2Ebola7GbEd vLZ69o+NbsL5vmOmT2AD0pEGfMgE9KWJ122iEfN4hrWThz+sHcVd/TKX9E98g+HTpoJGtYcp 6jYxG0YRP7dn1zSn9CawVJpMsoS2G0JZB/q2lIELoPRLMjicRDBEfamTPi3vyYiuf4vvCcYY z3AEMYirt5f7rBrVOs3FVBozEqrN2fPRWvFgTnhsQ8MEiq5/DMsnxFq2wgheAKPIAXhZiJFo KHsrpiAANEmGZBY2pbW05rBY1ZmJpi1yCrSk582cdPo2Ca+NrNEPJ9spoEinAtApp/orirJY bjKViWqmh7mYYyv/NAQKwGBE1up3tSGVj0rKG3f9seLvYsApHf0lhEQN/ypzC+pYDlSXzWxc Q8bifixb6XulaEgB5XOHwuvpTK6HoNNdZM44Fl+B/eAXaebL6Vh0P1EN/2DBr4FGNb8vlXdv Gxs7rJbJ8+aNmYeNIdg5qbYubNsO2fU7yw9kTDNTej63Ql1a0Md2wfZze8dZy6LJ/tL//IH3 JPd0jvT1y0LVIKoYVrIfv06zolVplqi72zfec1kpw0VR6dT/LyhBlyNumqJMRHdZlX4pUCpx 79pOonjHNTNuhjOPLlzai0ooWBtloDZfNGoFRVNNJv/hGvVM+wARAQABtBtCZW4gUmFtc2V5 IDxyYW1zZXlAcGhwLm5ldD6JAlQEEwEIAD4WIQQ5tkE0PYwQSysUbcP5w53AuWmFRAUCYIdB NgIbAwUJBr8a7wULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRD5w53AuWmFRMyWEACO9nAp /ahKv7UQfZ/bdNgj4BbSyVRQSCSH1ngkS0LL9r5qlhmvXoarD0943dMk6jbFdoUU5M7zZ62y EFLR20QJtqTc+O+ApXCB7qm3ZO4MH8hB8Nr1qRLYlUx2yQNWqkMqQawo3XybdLOucIOB0qaH UnpSTgNLIVgYQYUoFOJFL8SSj03BdVDOYgI5pvDlSEC1HmQyxTCVehQB5jhtCZrxjIT6dR3d 2HTYMsoZRdSa6sfzCvnkQV210gDEUpgblHFeadem5LdQkP71OTcItwdhxabL2uY+v/TWa+Fe avItg3uAsiKV499X7Co34LN5NkoSA1Ieq78coZAh6tY6nOb2EpbZxfWyBIbfzJ9/Ny1KC/rw Xo2P1CESkoU7eniupXJwMWv7o2+Jzb6D/lBhwrE0XDSvraLow8UmBdZyNMxxigpjUZhMo1ui qeHjbKaDZJvHQMBmhL4L1TTOSaOcwCP4uIwTteJRu6k1YR9a1VBTlAyjPhzA+gHYjkqdnV15 mOV2uDjCfKlmzxFED/6sxXXHkC/2I5s00DmqK4QHQf9lCz4gdF4Uiabs9x0ntCbs/LAVQqWm wEB5PPvsnTn1kW+4UdaMUuqiYtkyJU+bzkel/L+JHHMZr6EEG50nVVEx0oG6f4n1RSE3pPEW 3vWjUZ7uIvjTpCoAN7MIM5ZCXCnwxrkCDQRgh0E2ARAA2NPzmrdm/BA3DUijyTXcq0JQ0Pjd n8k26tVz04U3uX950U9Y3qWKn7Iv4uP+q82tgDL8sTzuwEErB2JQWB8XHKgh9kPdIwk7u4lC clOuSsd2mQt1O1ROPo5fNVuf2+aqo72TUcS4A2Q57zu4QRYe2/o4+8dQAbB3cKvs145oNpiQ gbA+G2uY0Gj6/p4q74a/2O+OJhqWlVkZYO3fy4S+9xkcueOg4AlXo4HeerzLIthwctgSrY8S K9p3dsiZ9dvgOcnp7moDlacnvBeQ8u1CxSeomHtfzaaFZ8oqb95tIROAtMdbyMPLYl0fOXG9 GhrmIIzoBMiwhPSDZjENGWXdSamcCtiMlostJwzVSV6pM3N2I2GXK2IgW/HVe5LwH9BPlJ4i GE2LQVNqzlgTN2k0+OyYen7bLP7UOHtBy3h2ab6VsCbZDx29Yxg/9PInGR+F8lcSJRDIc4rg GXQQ06+7+8Upqj68OPWn1ol30TldNY/eLRXbxePMAziG96iAQW7DXXajLxz00oatsDB5Z8pV RTP9AiZ/8sXswXLkH0VVnh4O5W80rdBw9vXwc+zJcaDknrJiQjfrMKEsuJ2dZ4VjRxGkYd9l Z9h9quMmtK2RRB5Nn0ullgTE4e3I4p5pJUFcQIQffXfhGAmeEh7u+ALbOC7wLHScHuSPW5Ti K2HnMDcAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQgAJhYhBDm2QTQ9jBBLKxRtw/nDncC5aYVEBQJgh0E2AhsMBQkG vxrvAAoJEPnDncC5aYVELfkP/j1gVRT5dOfk2yQRftcshV3h91RY3c8MCl/s+RYBXLjv7seE 8nn/Z1VG6IiPcwsBJYnM5Y8oaPvvlLc29shu7D8MLJbPS3jgN3m+MvaU7I6hH7u4xiG7SCFB qj7Xre8eJuToN/Ksl5wBVGic+iSYham4XpHjZEjyv5iH8ksZHhwQosiLr1ogEGBcwWDeg7Di hI41tB82siqKHyhOn06Jmir1DS7OXoMr6biUAPo7Rf1BTFh18BNVBfgrGApgUUfLlX32Myrd TwCVdxyoUYHK71LncaDDbCH5fFRZUHguktC92Sv8smFtoRco6SxGMKyG0g0V82cnpIQtdneT EVaaPsajIaGRmIkpBRw373nY4e4bRL4yxAz7aJW82U23awhUzZym05FQFe8+ksdgGgV+rQj1 8nKkXiNZwdR6hhSzlvc0+GuxWgwMtKPIJU8fBET42yAcvUdYSCAeXsMgAD9X3huV37o+qlZu yJRC737dZBrwdIJvZN1/oZ28CFc84LxrjL5efjbpqw/FXKCe1L47BQ0bL6RyCe8y9qxKeF2f EML6jkrmH28VkkyaFuabMsh7qwQuGReu2BQywdD4ivwsgeFcWB3u/RlOcpDfq/EkdXmrzZ3Y VBaPeCN0EPvffcdA7zoUueFI+JConWbme9Mg3oe++tcDvMKlr0HUGVFVCwkF Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:41:04 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.48 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <828C15A4-86D3-43EE-960F-05B4EA7DEB23@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pM6oEMrXlTgF9duZt60kqhY3k1jjEcgk2" X-Posted-By: 96.61.105.82 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Guidelines for RFC post feature-freeze From: ramsey@php.net (Ben Ramsey) Message-ID: --pM6oEMrXlTgF9duZt60kqhY3k1jjEcgk2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PkDRBnhH8nxlnI28tpaHjamVruhgtwe6Q" --PkDRBnhH8nxlnI28tpaHjamVruhgtwe6Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias Nyholm wrote on 8/27/21 13:11: >>> one way of reading this proposal is that we don=E2=80=99t trust the r= elease managers to decide what to include and not to include in a release= =2E >> >> To be clear, I don't trust release managers to decide that. Though >> they are all lovely people, not all of them have a deep enough >> understanding of PHP core to be fully able to evaluate changes. >=20 > If you don=E2=80=99t trust the release managers to manage the release, = then I suggest you should improve the way we select new release managers.= =20 I'm not speaking for Dan here, but as one of the release managers, I don't think Dan's statement was intended to mean he doesn't trust the release managers to "manage the release." What he said is that he doesn't trust the release managers to decided what to include and not include in a release. A PHP release manager's job is narrowly defined as: > A release manager's role includes making packaged source code > from the canonical repository available according to their release > schedule.[1] That's pretty much it. That's our job. Our job is NOT to decide what goes into a release. That's the job of the voters. That said, the release schedule (which is completely within the purview of the release managers' jobs) defines dates for each release, including the feature freeze, and the release managers have the authority to change these dates, if necessary. We did not choose the change the dates in this circumstance because there was no need to change them. There were no issues requiring a change to the release schedule. >> One of the hardest things to do in an Open Source project is to say >> 'no' to someone when they are making a request that isn't completely >> unreasonable. IMO, it would have been better if the 8.1 RM managers >> had said no to opening the "Nullable Intersection types" RFC, >=20 > Yes, but it does not mean that you *have to* say no. > But I do agree with you. The process would have been way better if they= said =E2=80=9Cno". Or if they clearly and unanimously said =E2=80=9Cyes=E2= =80=9D which would remove focus on =E2=80=9Cit feels rushed=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cwe can=E2=80=99t because of feature freeze=E2=80=9D. > This is the the extended power I would like the RMs (as a group) to hav= e.=20 We already have this power, and we exercised this power in this particular situation, but we are also human, and we made some communication mistakes. > To be clear, Im not suggesting they should veto every RFC. Just changes= during feature freeze. Since RMs are experienced open source developers,= Im sure they know to ask for help privately whenever they need it.=20 To be clear, we DO NOT have the power to veto an RFC, and this is not a power the release managers should ever have. Cheers, Ben [1]: https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/docs/release-process.md --PkDRBnhH8nxlnI28tpaHjamVruhgtwe6Q-- --pM6oEMrXlTgF9duZt60kqhY3k1jjEcgk2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEObZBND2MEEsrFG3D+cOdwLlphUQFAmEpvmAACgkQ+cOdwLlp hUSB5A/+KoL2zdkfaXGkF2lF2HPVJNh5L2cE8lthm0hDNaaJQSPN4Uisxk0WGAcH FEDNUpmAmYmVBcY8tvmzqi8SHyhK/TurK90Qby8YnMAKVP15bGZkS/9/EI9EqEtW jZNs/ndoyQpmCagdj0r0x87vugAV/pH6/nrWLyagxuu3uIHYyP/kNpsFUzL+wpl0 L6Oz3MgE/DdXyF2Qq+EYT3Or+35BWFJkHgb/RjNHSwIzaZDbXawG3JeGQ08HmoAs /iTcizDI+R8d/wHifPE1BNVyOaOnCv0S2GPtOYb9qkw2YpZCeUPyjHLOLqZuTqLs WoMYmKv4MiMOxruwxUeyboYz5AiTOM5LiNTSDGzWaNAv4dE23+00Hc5qBL5+RMN6 KQmx9Fg26NbNznczbjehs4qHBegqzQgL3M7VFcGn64CdOnK3HeqApfLqD9913HXZ 9J0vEoerlI5N/xTBXEZ9VAr1HEpdDA1ERudfZoIAEHoNTZfhAl/kY2Us/zd8B2V9 Mu47Z2Im+4xDd7vpSow69dXoLHGECbEGfT+voajvVdBPZrFDIC/PqDwbJh5JY6/f vtkK0d6xpMRwsh/1QDkDYS7zmdiq+xTd4Vqlfn1fzK5UjRrxhLbDiXmvNYZADGln 6TdlEbFe0dl8QkxmLTYZc2mhEOPPkZwP02flVAkHUYpBX9Zpo7o= =0vHS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pM6oEMrXlTgF9duZt60kqhY3k1jjEcgk2--