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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 23:24:59 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJmjfvUOF2GvLjapOFqcEuj4ORkiW92d7gq0gF30hx+mxMs0wA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benjamin Eberlei <kontakt@beberlei.de>
Cc: Benjamin Morel <benjamin.morel@gmail.com>, 
	=?UTF-8?B?TWljaGFlbCBWb8WZw63FoWVrIC0gxIxWVVQgRkVM?= <vorismi3@fel.cvut.cz>, 
	PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change
From: jakob@givoni.dk (Jakob Givoni)

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM Benjamin Eberlei <kontakt@beberlei.de> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jakob Givoni <jakob@givoni.dk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument.
>> It's true that annotations used to be enclosed in a docblock, but that
>> is not an argument for saying that attributes NEEDS to be enclosed in
>> a block too.
>> It's also true that attributes can be followed by many different
>> things, but still it doesn't follow that block enclosing is NECESSARY.
>> What I'm saying is that there is still no good argument for why
>> attribute block syntax is better than non-block syntax.
>> The only argument that was presented in the original RFC was not
>> convincing, and I pointed out why.
>
> Nobody says it's ultimately **necessarry** as @@ can work.

Thanks for the clarification. This is the first time I've heard
someone from the block-delimiter camp concede that @@ is not
necessarily objectively "terrible" (as you yourself put it almost a
month ago), as it was made out to be.

The question is now if it's reasonable at all to change something for
99% purely subjective reasons (no other substantial fact has been put
forward other than the VIM argument) well past feature freeze (yes I
know it's not a feature, but it's still controversial), even past the
beta3 date. And still without respect for letting the discussion phase
run its course before putting to a vote.

May I remind everybody of a few words long ago from our release manager Sara:

> I'm fine with this or any syntax, but FF is 13 days away, you're going to
> have to give me something more substantial than "It maybe breaks something
> somewhere somehow".

> Regards the vote; I don't believe that @@ has been proven unworkable,
> however if I'm wrong about that, then the second choice selection from the
> last vote would obviously take precedence.

> If that's the case, then the solution still seems obvious: Defer attributes
> to 8.1. I know a LOT of people will not be happy about that, but it's the most
> responsible thing to do if the threat of forking up is that present and
> that dangerous.

How did we end up here? What started with "[...] a deep sense of
unease that we collectively made the
wrong decision [...]" may have taken a turn for the worse when it
comes to confidence in the process and the community.
Or is it just me being dramatic? :-D

All the best,
Jakob