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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:03 -0600
Message-ID: <CAK70goN37iiSZW9qyABrvAzAhoWEXEcN8KDoqcUxRPSHaK3dXQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Daniel Rodrigues Lima <danielrodrigues-ti@hotmail.com>
Cc: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms master/slave and blacklist,
 proposal to replace.
From: cja987@gmail.com (Chuck Adams)

I might suggest that we at least confine any renaming to things that
are user-visible and not worry about the source code.  Except they're
going to need aliases for all time, that's just a fact.  Although I'm
all about addressing the injustices of the past and present, I think
it would be a lot more productive to spend our effort on future
naming.

I have pretty different connotations for "blacklist" anyway, seeing it
less as an exclude pattern and more of a "never allow this because
it's really bad if you do".  Like the blacklisted keys unix distros
keep after that a critical security bug in ssh a ways back.

Let's look forward AND backward, but mostly forward.  And with my
awesome rhetorical skills, I single handedly put this matter to bed,
right?  ;)

--c

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 3:12 PM Daniel Rodrigues Lima
<danielrodrigues-ti@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> I appreciate your answer, thank you, but i would like to clarify some poi=
nts:
>
> 1. I found 170 occurrences of the term blacklist - grep -rni "blacklist" =
php-src/, i'm working to understand the impact of changes;
>
> 2. It=E2=80=99s not about politics, i believe it=E2=80=99s about learning=
 how to be better humans;
>
> 3. I fully agree;
>
> 4. Sometimes it's necessary "broken window policing";
>
> 5. I truly recognize this, and respect above all.
>
>
> However if the majority disagree with the changes it is not worth pursuin=
g this discussion, and I should not even write an RFC for that.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Daniel Rodrigues
>
> https://twitter.com/geekcom2
> ________________________________
> De: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>
> Enviado: segunda-feira, 15 de junho de 2020 17:21
> Para: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
> Assunto: Re: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms master/slave and blackl=
ist, proposal to replace.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 2:11 PM, G. P. B. wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:05, Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams <addw@phcomp.co.uk=
>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One need=
s to
> > > > look at intent.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm going to disagree here. It's not about intent, it's about impact.=
 You
> > > can have the best intentions with the worst results.
> > >
> > > When I read the replies here, it makes me sad. The comments come from=
 a
> > > place of white privilege and I'm sad to see that's how people think a=
bout
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Lynn
> > >
> >
> > What saddens me is that these terms are non issues, and think they do
> > something for "good" when it's just a pat on the back without doing any
> > tangible change to the world.
> >
> > Case in point, from what I've seen mostly going around in the French
> > community [1] is that the people who are actually concerned think it's
> > woke and completely nonsensical. And I could argue the white-privelege
> > here is to discuss these matters and imagine they would improve somethi=
ng.
> >
> > For blacklist/whitelist the benefit of changing it is that we can use m=
ore
> > descriptive terminology such as deny/block/disallow and their opposite
> > depending on context, which probably is more accessible to non-native
> > English speakers. And if one wants to change it this should be the angl=
e.
> >
> > However, I would argue that *if* when someone hears the word black the
> > first thing which comes to their mind is race, then that makes them mor=
e
> > of a racist and not the other people who use this with the well defined
> > meaning. As such I would argue this is undermining the meaning of the
> > word and pushing us towards an orwellian [2] state of the world.
> >
> > Moreover, black does not always mean something is "bad", see martial
> > arts where a black belt is synonymous with experience and a white belt
> > means that you are a novice.
> >
> > So instead of taking offence on behalf of a whole group and proposing
> > changes which don't affect said group in any meaningful way while
> > causing BC. Because if we decided to accept doing this, I shall start
> > being offended about the usage of the word string as in French string
> > means a thong and I imagine French women to be outraged that we
> > (predominantly white males) casually talk about splitting or comparing
> > strings.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > George P. Banyard
> >
> > [1] https://twitter.com/jesuisundev/status/1269260740894117890
> > [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Doe64p-QzhNE
>
> I am so going to regret being in this thread, but...
>
>
> Data point: My boss at work noted earlier that he'd reached out to some b=
lack women he knows to get their take; their response to him was that black=
list/whitelist did bother them, but "master branch" did not.
>
> Of course, with GitHub now deciding to change its standards that is going=
 to percolate to the rest of the industry sooner or later, regardless of wh=
ether it's a good idea or a stupid waste of time.  It's going to happen now=
.
>
> It should be noted that a person saying "I am offended" does not, in fact=
, make something automatically offensive, or that you should always assume =
that their position is right, or justified, or that you should take action =
as a result.  As evidence, I cite that I find "Native American" offensive b=
ecause it implies one group of people is truly "from" a place rightly, and =
no one else is no matter how long they've been here; that's despite the fac=
t that every group of people everywhere in history has moved around, a lot,=
 and no one is "native" to anywhere if you go back far enough, and genetic =
groups and cultural groups migrate independently of each other (much as we =
like to to pretend otherwise).  In fact the term isn't even preferred by th=
e people it refers to[1].  But no one listens to me, because I'm not in a g=
roup that's allowed to be offended.  There's way more politics around "offe=
nse" than anyone is willing to admit.  (And that's not a left or right spec=
ific issue.)
>
> Also, point of order to Ben: Free Software is political[2].  Open Source =
was very specifically created to be the de-politicized, amoral version that=
 companies could leverage without having to bother with that ethics stuff. =
 That's literally the history.  It's also why I support Free Software.  (No=
te: That attempt is largely unsuccessful because *all* software is inherent=
ly political, but credit where it's due, please.)
>
> Having been through these conversations multiple times before, I would ur=
ge everyone to keep in mind the following:
>
> 1) As Nikita said, without an actionable todo item to discuss, there's no=
thing productive to discuss.
>
> 2) If you are able to find a reason for a change other than "because it's=
 offensive not to," do it, and push that angle.  Make the political angle s=
econdary.  It makes it more palatable.
>
> 3) For the love of God, do not go into this or similar discussions assumi=
ng that anyone who disagrees with you is a bad person.  I know it's hard, e=
specially on touchy topics, but that is how communication dies.  Wanting to=
 change whitelist/blacklist does *not* make someone a troublemaker just try=
ing to cause trouble for little value.  Opposing that same change does *not=
* make someone racist, or uncaring, or "OMG privilege so we don't have to l=
isten to you," or whatever.  I've seen that pattern appear way the hell too=
 many times, and it's toxic, and does nothing but poison communities.
>
> 4) Let's all understand that language changes like this are at best broke=
n window policing, and I use that term very deliberately.  If you really ca=
re about addressing persistent inequality in the world. get your butt out t=
o a Black Lives Matter march, write your legislator, join a reform group, w=
ork on hiring practices in your own company, or do something else that requ=
ires actual work.  That goes for everyone.
>
> 5) Acknowledge that there are very likely a lot of people on this list wh=
o are doing the things in point 4 already, but still oppose the language ch=
anges.  Whether you agree with them or not, that's an acceptable and valid =
position for them to take.  Please respect that.
>
> [1] https://youtu.be/kh88fVP2FWQ
> [2] https://peakd.com/programming/@crell/free-software-is-political
>
> --Larry Garfield
>
> --
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