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To: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>, PHP Internals
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Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms master/slave and blacklist,
 proposal to replace.
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:11:48 +0000
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Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms master/slave and blacklist,
 proposal to replace.
From: danielrodrigues-ti@hotmail.com (Daniel Rodrigues Lima)

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Hi Larry,

I appreciate your answer, thank you, but i would like to clarify some point=
s:

1. I found 170 occurrences of the term blacklist - grep -rni "blacklist" ph=
p-src/, i'm working to understand the impact of changes;

2. It=92s not about politics, i believe it=92s about learning how to be bet=
ter humans;

3. I fully agree;

4. Sometimes it's necessary "broken window policing";

5. I truly recognize this, and respect above all.


However if the majority disagree with the changes it is not worth pursuing =
this discussion, and I should not even write an RFC for that.

--
Cheers,

Daniel Rodrigues

https://twitter.com/geekcom2
________________________________
De: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>
Enviado: segunda-feira, 15 de junho de 2020 17:21
Para: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Assunto: Re: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms master/slave and blacklis=
t, proposal to replace.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 2:11 PM, G. P. B. wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:05, Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams <addw@phcomp.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs =
to
> > > look at intent.
> > >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm going to disagree here. It's not about intent, it's about impact. Y=
ou
> > can have the best intentions with the worst results.
> >
> > When I read the replies here, it makes me sad. The comments come from a
> > place of white privilege and I'm sad to see that's how people think abo=
ut
> > it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lynn
> >
>
> What saddens me is that these terms are non issues, and think they do
> something for "good" when it's just a pat on the back without doing any
> tangible change to the world.
>
> Case in point, from what I've seen mostly going around in the French
> community [1] is that the people who are actually concerned think it's
> woke and completely nonsensical. And I could argue the white-privelege
> here is to discuss these matters and imagine they would improve something=
.
>
> For blacklist/whitelist the benefit of changing it is that we can use mor=
e
> descriptive terminology such as deny/block/disallow and their opposite
> depending on context, which probably is more accessible to non-native
> English speakers. And if one wants to change it this should be the angle.
>
> However, I would argue that *if* when someone hears the word black the
> first thing which comes to their mind is race, then that makes them more
> of a racist and not the other people who use this with the well defined
> meaning. As such I would argue this is undermining the meaning of the
> word and pushing us towards an orwellian [2] state of the world.
>
> Moreover, black does not always mean something is "bad", see martial
> arts where a black belt is synonymous with experience and a white belt
> means that you are a novice.
>
> So instead of taking offence on behalf of a whole group and proposing
> changes which don't affect said group in any meaningful way while
> causing BC. Because if we decided to accept doing this, I shall start
> being offended about the usage of the word string as in French string
> means a thong and I imagine French women to be outraged that we
> (predominantly white males) casually talk about splitting or comparing
> strings.
>
> Best
>
> George P. Banyard
>
> [1] https://twitter.com/jesuisundev/status/1269260740894117890
> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Doe64p-QzhNE

I am so going to regret being in this thread, but...


Data point: My boss at work noted earlier that he'd reached out to some bla=
ck women he knows to get their take; their response to him was that blackli=
st/whitelist did bother them, but "master branch" did not.

Of course, with GitHub now deciding to change its standards that is going t=
o percolate to the rest of the industry sooner or later, regardless of whet=
her it's a good idea or a stupid waste of time.  It's going to happen now.

It should be noted that a person saying "I am offended" does not, in fact, =
make something automatically offensive, or that you should always assume th=
at their position is right, or justified, or that you should take action as=
 a result.  As evidence, I cite that I find "Native American" offensive bec=
ause it implies one group of people is truly "from" a place rightly, and no=
 one else is no matter how long they've been here; that's despite the fact =
that every group of people everywhere in history has moved around, a lot, a=
nd no one is "native" to anywhere if you go back far enough, and genetic gr=
oups and cultural groups migrate independently of each other (much as we li=
ke to to pretend otherwise).  In fact the term isn't even preferred by the =
people it refers to[1].  But no one listens to me, because I'm not in a gro=
up that's allowed to be offended.  There's way more politics around "offens=
e" than anyone is willing to admit.  (And that's not a left or right specif=
ic issue.)

Also, point of order to Ben: Free Software is political[2].  Open Source wa=
s very specifically created to be the de-politicized, amoral version that c=
ompanies could leverage without having to bother with that ethics stuff.  T=
hat's literally the history.  It's also why I support Free Software.  (Note=
: That attempt is largely unsuccessful because *all* software is inherently=
 political, but credit where it's due, please.)

Having been through these conversations multiple times before, I would urge=
 everyone to keep in mind the following:

1) As Nikita said, without an actionable todo item to discuss, there's noth=
ing productive to discuss.

2) If you are able to find a reason for a change other than "because it's o=
ffensive not to," do it, and push that angle.  Make the political angle sec=
ondary.  It makes it more palatable.

3) For the love of God, do not go into this or similar discussions assuming=
 that anyone who disagrees with you is a bad person.  I know it's hard, esp=
ecially on touchy topics, but that is how communication dies.  Wanting to c=
hange whitelist/blacklist does *not* make someone a troublemaker just tryin=
g to cause trouble for little value.  Opposing that same change does *not* =
make someone racist, or uncaring, or "OMG privilege so we don't have to lis=
ten to you," or whatever.  I've seen that pattern appear way the hell too m=
any times, and it's toxic, and does nothing but poison communities.

4) Let's all understand that language changes like this are at best broken =
window policing, and I use that term very deliberately.  If you really care=
 about addressing persistent inequality in the world. get your butt out to =
a Black Lives Matter march, write your legislator, join a reform group, wor=
k on hiring practices in your own company, or do something else that requir=
es actual work.  That goes for everyone.

5) Acknowledge that there are very likely a lot of people on this list who =
are doing the things in point 4 already, but still oppose the language chan=
ges.  Whether you agree with them or not, that's an acceptable and valid po=
sition for them to take.  Please respect that.

[1] https://youtu.be/kh88fVP2FWQ
[2] https://peakd.com/programming/@crell/free-software-is-political

--Larry Garfield

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