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In-Reply-To: <CAEZPtU5Z+vrjgqW_BT3aKUnpdAg8j-nHi=+zu4+-PDPvVGUTJA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:35:16 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOwTYAvUHyPAZksoW2HJt0HRyZx0+aQo+mH0L2We0_NEN=NU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>
Cc: Benjamin Eberlei <kontakt@beberlei.de>, =?UTF-8?Q?Johannes_Schl=C3=BCter?= <johannes@schlueters.de>, 
	Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] GitHub RFC workflow
From: krakjoe@gmail.com (Joe Watkins)

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Morning Pierre,

> Sorry, no time to dig in our list of current active contributors and
define the risks for each of them.

That's not what I asked for, I asked for a single concrete example where
this would have in fact been a problem.

I'm in Spain, and unaware of any access problems ...

Can you point me to a story explaining what you're talking about in regards
to Spain and South America ?

I'm not suggesting we ignore it, and I may in fact be ignorant of some of
the problems you are talking about. But, at bottom world politics and
political instability are not the problem of an open source project.

I'm also not suggesting we move everything to github. I'm simply
questioning the "owning all content" mantra because it doesn't make as much
sense today as perhaps it once did.

Cheers
Joe

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 08:19, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019, 12:54 PM Joe Watkins <krakjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Morning,
>>
>> I don't want to follow this tangent for too long on owning content.
>>
>
>> Pierre, can you point to any contribution that would have been blocked by
>> our use of github ?
>>
>
> Sorry, no time to dig in our list of current active contributors and
> define the risks for each of them.
>
>
> However I am a big fan of github and all for increasing its usage.
>
> When it comes to contributors, votes and rfc, it cannot be the only way.
> Iran, Spain recently or some south America countries have issues with
> github. Citizen or countries have been blocked, projects removed without
> warning based on local gov requests etc.
>
> This is a risk we cannot and should  not ignore.
>
>
>
>> For all intents and purposes, the majority of new development does
>> actually happen on github. As a result of us being terrible at
>> infrastructure - nobody can deny this - the submit a patch thing on bugsnet
>> was (or is) broken so development had to move to a place that worked.
>>
>
>
>
>>  I would find the arguments in favour of owning our content more
>> convincing if we were any good at owning content. We're not, machines go
>> down, forms break, mailing lists stop working ... we suck so hard at this,
>> and github is spending millions on these problems, to not take advantage of
>> what is being offered makes no sense on it's face.
>>
>> I think we should rethink these decisions in light of the current facts
>> about the project.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Joe
>>
>> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 05:54, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019, 7:30 AM Benjamin Eberlei <kontakt@beberlei.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Outside pull requests don't live in php-src.git, because they are
>>>> provided
>>>> by different remotes and these are not as far as I see mirrored back in
>>>> any
>>>> way to php.net git.
>>>>
>>>> So the question Joe poses is right, pull request descriptions and all
>>>> their
>>>> comments are currently only available on Github.
>>>>
>>>> I also question the "we must own everything" rule, as its highly
>>>> unlikely
>>>> Github will not suddenly remove all php-src data and they provide an
>>>> API to
>>>> backup or migrate data if we ever want to do something else.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The question is more accessibility.  As mentioned before,  GH (and
>>> other) increasingly bans countries, or even worse, citizens from a country,
>>> or apps (See spain recently).
>>>
>>> That means some of the valid contributions to php won't be able to
>>> participate if we were using only GH.
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>

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