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In-Reply-To: <CAPKYkKzHZnTRRA1MUZxtj80epUqGv9zHhJNVuTVoh5_x8roXYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 12:59:37 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMPTd_BBqOFcOO-zHhNoPekRQrfsK9yReisUpYjRYvu77k7-7A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Chase Peeler <chasepeeler@gmail.com>
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e55f0f059493d726"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Internals "camps"
From: walterp@gmail.com (Walter Parker)

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On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:36 AM Chase Peeler <chasepeeler@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 1:30 PM Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >
>> > No. The compromise is funding a ferry system. Or laying Internet between
>> > them. Or a passenger pigeon mail route.
>> >
>> > Sometimes compromise requires deep discussion about the motivations for
>> > each side and coming to a lateral, mutually acceptable, solution.
>> >
>> > But we'd rather not discuss motivations and just bicker about the
>> surface
>> > results. I.e., argue the X, rather than the Y, of these little XY
>> problems
>> > we're solving.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Build a ferry system is alternative to building bridge. I can see that as
>> a
>> compromise, I can also see that as a separate project created to serve
>> demand after the the bridge project is rejected. Where a ferry system is
>> started because there is still demand for transit, just not enough demand
>> to pay for a bridge.
>>
>> With respect to the backtick proposal, what is the "ferry" project? Do we
>> have to come up with one before we can cancel the "bridge" project or can
>> we cancel the "bridge" project on its own merits and then discuss a future
>> project that solves the actual underlying problem?
>>
>> "Ferry" projects might be: more/better training on PHP, better
>> documentation so that the backtick is no longer an "obscure" feature to
>> those that don't have a shell/Unix/Perl background, tooling to warn people
>> when they misuse this feature.
>>
>>
>>
> To the side that says "There is absolutely no reason we need to go to, or
> communicate with, the island in the first place," a ferry project isn't a
> compromise. The position of the "anti-bridge" builders isn't because they
> are against building bridges - it's because they are against spending
> resources on attempts to get to the island in the first place. The other
> side might have valid arguments on why we need to get to the island, but,
> just proposing different ways to get there isn't compromising with the side
> that doesn't want to go there.
>

I think you may have just created a strawman for the anti-bridge position.
There are famous anti-bridge cases, like the Bridge to Nowhere in Alaska
(if you don't remember, there was an island in Alaska that had 50 people
and Senator Stevens wanted to replace the existing ferry system with a $398
million bridge). People complained about the bridge not because they wanted
the islanders to to isolated, but because it was poor use of money when
there where bigger and more urgent problems.

To bring this back to PHP, is the backtick really a urgent problem of
enough magnitude that it justifies the cost of a BC break in unknown amount
of PHP code that has been functional for years. If this proposal passes
(and the follow up to remove it which I'm certain will be proposed), then
this is one that leaves people on the island as they will either be stuck
on an old version of PHP or have to pay to update the code. This pushes the
costs on them to solve a an existing issue that 20 years after it was
created and is now an issue because a new generation of coders, unaware of
history, find the existing syntax not to there taste/a poor design. Why are
we giving priority to people that haven't taken the time to educate
themselves over people that did and used programming style that used to
common?


>
>
>> Walter
>>
>> --
>> The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
>> zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.   -- Justice Louis D.
>> Brandeis
>>
>
>
> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepeeler@gmail.com
>


-- 
The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.   -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis

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