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To: Dan Ackroyd <Danack@basereality.com>
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 11:28:24 -0700
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Prevent disruptions of conversations
From: smalyshev@gmail.com (Stanislav Malyshev)

Hi!


> You're right that 7.4 will probably come out, I remain concerned that
> fixing any bugs that are found during the release process, or
> inevitably those found after the 7.4.0 release occurs, would be more
> difficult if people are hesitant to discuss issues on internals.

What is the base of your concern? Were you or anybody else deterred from
using bugs.php.net and reporting 7.4 issue because of completely
unrelated discussions going on internals? Which specific bugs were
those? Please point them out to the RMs so they could get proper
attention. That's why we have threads in every mailing software out
there - so you could manage multiple conversations without interfering
with each other. I so far haven't heard of any bugs being unfixed
because of anything your RFC mentions. Can you name some in 7.4?
If it never happened - and the same for all previous releases, which had
their share of heated discussions - then I think your concern may be
unwarranted, at least as far as releasing 7.4 and fixing the following
bugs is concerned.

> I've also added some words to help focus the goal on making
> conversations more productive, rather than addressing disruption.

I would like to emphasize again that I completely appreciate the goal of
making conversations more productive, but I continue to believe you
chose entirely wrong way to go about it and any part of your RFC that
deals with excluding people and publicly deeming them disruptive or
whatever it is called would lead to exactly the opposite effect. It
doesn't mean the community can't have bad apples and doesn't have to
deal with them - it's just dealing with them in this manner would likely
cause worse effects than the original disruptions.
The motivation to abuse such system - especially when it's born out of
heated discussions and the RFC seems to have examples targeted at
particular opinions of particular people (maybe it's a coincidence, but
if it looks that way, that's all that matters) - and use it as a tool to
suppress opposition (for their own good, of course) would be too great.

> * avoid trying to address disruptions for discussions they are taking
> part in. It's really hard for someone to objectively think about
> someone's behaviour when you're also taking part in a discussion with
> them.

I wonder where you going to find people that:
- Understand the subject of discussion enough to be able to follow it
and to render informed opinion on what's going on
- Never participated in that discussion or any similar ones
- Never had previous discussions with the same people that may left them
holding grudges or personal attachments to participants of the current
discussions
- Do not hold any strong opinions on the topic that may cloud their
objectivity
- Are active in the community enough so that they can be universally trusted
- Are tactful, infinitely patient and have enough free time to
thoroughly read humongous discussion threads, politely calm down all the
parties and not be ever tempted to take a side of anyone, but remain
always objective

How would we find such unicorns?

-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalyshev@gmail.com