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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:57:03 +0200
Message-ID: <1054760501-26038@hotpoint.ch2o.info>
To: Daniel =?UTF-8?b?TWFydMOtbg==?= Spiridione
	<daniel.spiridione@gmail.com>, Mike Schinkel <mikeschinkel@gmail.com>
Cc: Olumide Samson <oludonsexy@gmail.com>, PHP internals
	<internals@lists.php.net>
Reply-To: Mathieu CARBONNEAUX <info-reply@ch2o.info>
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Subject: Re: [info@ch2o.info] Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's declining(?) popularity
From: info@ch2o.info (Mathieu CARBONNEAUX)

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Hi,
One of the IT futur, is Container (docker like and kubernetes like) and Sin=
gle Page Application...=20

On the other language the tendancy is to simplify the start time and single=
 start of the application (only one process start the application runc) and=
 simplify configuration; and simplify logging (all on the stdout/err of the=
 container) to work better in this type of infrastructure.

On java side for exemple the tendency is bootstraping the servelet engine (=
of tomcat or jetty) in standalone process... no complex configuration...

With PHP you must use apache+mod_php, or nginx + php-fpm in the same contai=
ner.... they are very comlex to configure (you must configure php, apache/n=
ginx, some time +htaccess)... to package...
The ideal way is to embed the http server in php to be abel to start direct=
ly the php from php cli (php -S localhost:8000) ...
The actual http server implementation are minimal... and not very performan=
te (lake of event/thread/process manager, and lake of http2 support)...=20

Swoole is perfect exemple of this tendency... but need some addition to per=
mit standard php application like wordpress to work directly on the type of=
 packaging....=20

And also abscence of concurrency (coroutine or thread, native simple multi =
process pool like process manager in swoole) are a real obstacle to the pro=
gression of php...=20
Swoole add this with the event model (not real threading, user mode thread)=
... but real thread while be a must...
Unit project from nginx are good exemple of that and good exemple of these =
tendency...
Mathieu
Daniel Mart=C3=ADn Spiridione , 16/09/2019 20:56:
The lack of concurrent PHP features in 2019 is, in my opinion, sufficient=20
reason not to use it for CLI projects.=20
Some companies do not welcome installing extensions like Swoole, the=20
language should have native concurrent features.=20
=20
Daniel=20
=20
El dom., 15 sept. 2019 a las 0:33, Mike Schinkel (<mikeschinkel@gmail.com>)=
=20
escribi=C3=B3:=20
=20
> > On Sep 14, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Olumide Samson <oludonsexy@gmail.com>=20
> wrote:=20
> >=20
> > https://jaxenter.com/php-tiobe-sept-2019-162096.html=20
> > I think this is one of those things we get from voting no...=20
> >=20
> > I might be wrong anyways :-?=20
>=20
> If those specific rankings are legitimately a cause for concern then it=20
> would make sense to do some objective analysis to determine why the=20
> languages that are growing marketshare are growing.=20
>=20
> From the list it seems Python stands out as having the most growth as a=20
> percentage.=20
>=20
> Googling for "why has python become so popular" I get these articles.=20
>=20
> I have copied their top level points but also included the text for the=20
> one point they all seem to have in common, that Python is simple, easy to=
=20
> use and easy to learn for new users (emphasis mine in all cases):=20
>=20
>=20
> https://medium.com/@trungluongquang/why-python-is-popular-despite-being-s=
uper-slow-83a8320412a9=20
> <=20
> https://medium.com/@trungluongquang/why-python-is-popular-despite-being-s=
uper-slow-83a8320412a9=20
> >=20
> 1. End-users just don=E2=80=99t care (about slower performance)=20
> 2. More Productive=20
> "First and foremost reason why Python is much popular because it is highl=
y=20
> productive as compared to other programming languages like C++ and Java. =
It=20
> is much more concise and expressive language and requires less time,=20
> effort, and lines of code to perform the same operations. The Python=20
> features like one-liners and dynamic type system allow developers to writ=
e=20
> very fewer lines of code for tasks that require more lines of code in oth=
er=20
> languages. This makes Python very easy-to-learn programming language even=
=20
> for beginners and newbies. For instance, Python programs are slower than=20
> Java, but they also take very less time to develop, as Python codes are 3=
=20
> to 5 times shorter than Java codes. Python is also very famous for its=20
> simple programming syntax, code readability and English-like commands tha=
t=20
> make coding in Python lot easier and efficient."=20
> 3. Execution Speed does not matter as much as Business Speed=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> https://www.kdnuggets.com/2017/07/6-reasons-python-suddenly-super-popular=
.html=20
> <=20
> https://www.kdnuggets.com/2017/07/6-reasons-python-suddenly-super-popular=
.html=20
> >=20
> 1. Python Has a Healthy, Active and Supportive Community=20
> 2. Python Has Some Great Corporate Sponsors=20
> 3. Python Has Big Data=20
> 4. Python Has Amazing Libraries=20
> 5. Python Is Reliable and Efficient=20
> 6. Python Is Accessible=20
> "For newcomers and beginners, Python is incredibly easy to learn and use.=
=20
> In fact, it=E2=80=99s one of the most accessible programming languages av=
ailable.=20
> Part of the reason is the simplified syntax with an emphasis on natural=20
> language. But it=E2=80=99s also because you can write Python code and exe=
cute it=20
> much faster."=20
>=20
>=20
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-python-is-so-popular-with-develo=
pers-3-reasons-the-language-has-exploded/=20
> <=20
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-python-is-so-popular-with-develo=
pers-3-reasons-the-language-has-exploded/=20
> >=20
>=20
> 1. Ease of learning=20
> "Python is the closest language to what I call 'an instant gratification=20
> language,' meaning with very little code, it can accomplish so much, even=
=20
> if you are a novice programmer," said Karen Panetta, an IEEE Fellow and=20
> Dean of Graduate Engineering at Tufts University. "This is because Python=
=20
> reads like English, which makes it more conducive for a broad level of us=
er=20
> audiences to learn. Many of the 'nerdy' low-level details we used to worr=
y=20
> about in other languages, such as declaring types of variables or=20
> arguments, are handled by Python, so it makes programming very flexible a=
nd=20
> easier to use than other languages."=20
> 2. The explosion of AI, machine learning, and data science in the=20
> enterprise=20
> 3. A large developer community=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> https://www.skillsoft.com/blog/2018/06/top-5-reasons-why-python-is-so-pop=
ular/=20
> <=20
> https://www.skillsoft.com/blog/2018/06/top-5-reasons-why-python-is-so-pop=
ular/=20
> >=20
>=20
> 1. Python is efficient=20
> 2. Python has an active community=20
> 3. Python is simple=20
> "With a shorter learning curve than other languages, say Java or C++, and=
=20
> understandable and readable syntax, you don=E2=80=99t need to be a progra=
mmer to=20
> start applying Python to everyday tasks. Python automatically takes care =
of=20
> things like garbage collection and even closes files, opened via the =E2=
=80=98with=E2=80=99=20
> statement, for you. People starting out may also find the use of=20
> indentation to signify the start and end of loops, functions, classes and=
=20
> code blocks easier than tracking down the traditional opening and closing=
=20
> curly braces."=20
> 4. Python is in academia=20
> 5. Python is on trend=20
>=20
>=20
> https://eplexity.com/6-reasons-the-python-programming-language-is-so-popu=
lar/=20
> <=20
> https://eplexity.com/6-reasons-the-python-programming-language-is-so-popu=
lar/=20
> >=20
>=20
> 1. Ease of use=20
> "Since its creation in the late 1980s by Guido van Rossum, Python has bee=
n=20
> specifically designed to be a general-purpose language. The simplicity of=
=20
> Python, and its easily human-readable syntax are two reasons why the=20
> language is so popular among seasoned coding professionals and Computer=20
> Science 101 students alike. Python is also an interpreted language, which=
=20
> means that you can quickly experiment with changes to the code base."=20
> 2. Supportive community=20
> 3. Corporate sponsors=20
> 4. Libraries and frameworks=20
> 5. Use in big data and machine learning=20
> 6. Efficiency=20
>=20
> Notice in none of these articles is there any mention of static typing or=
=20
> strictness or correctness as an attribute that the authors think=20
> contributes to why Python is gaining success.=20
>=20
> So my takeaway would be that if we wanted to see PHP start gaining=20
> marketshare again we should focus on features that make it easier to use=20
> and spend less time on trying to raise the bar for the skill level it wil=
l=20
> take to program in PHP8.=20
>=20
> #jmtcw=20
>=20
> -Mike=20
>=20
> P.S. Other ways to grow market share could be to:=20
>=20
> 1. Strive to support data science in a major way=20
> 2. Run on Single Board Computers like Raspberry Pi=20
> 3. Run a CLI via a single executable (i.e. package PHP runtime and PHAR=20
> files together so PHP scripts could be distributed without requiring a=20
> correctly installed version of PHP)=20
>=20
> 4. Empower developers to create cross-platform desktop, also contained=20
> with a single executable=20
> 5. Empower developers to create cross-platform mobile apps=20
> 6. Pursue corporate sponsors (too bad the Facebook ship already sailed.)=20
>=20
> 7. Find ways to get PHP taught in academia=20
> 8. Put more effort into driving adoption for PSRs like =C2=A06,7, 11, 14,=
 15,=20
> 16, 18 and in identifying and releasing more.=20
> 9. Strive to make PHP the best solution for AWS Lamba and other serverles=
s=20
> solutions=20
>=20
> 10. Embrace all of userland PHP by giving them a voice in the direction o=
f=20
> PHP, instead of limiting that voice to only those currently with a vote v=
ia=20
> phpinternals.=20
>=20
> Of course just because I included it in the list above does not mean the=20
> PHP team needs to pursue (any of) them. =C2=A0I am just pointing out area=
s where=20
> I think PHP could see some growth if PHP pursued it.=20
>=20
> Also, any of the above would require the PHP internals community to join=20
> together for the common-good rather than taking no-comprised positions th=
at=20
> each seek one person's view of PHP perfection while blocking everything=20
> else.=20
>=20
> IMO anyway.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
=

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