Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:107017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 57489 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2019 22:04:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO php-smtp3.php.net) (208.43.231.12) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 12 Sep 2019 22:04:04 -0000 Received: from php-smtp3.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp3.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1D52CD1C4 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:40:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on php-smtp3.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLY,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_HELO_NONE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-ASN: AS3215 2.6.0.0/16 X-Spam-Virus: No Received: from mail-oi1-x242.google.com (mail-oi1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp3.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x242.google.com with SMTP id w6so206225oie.11 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:40:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xbBGmoD7iE9bibTxvn/SxdUlvy4zE1drZUglgcNKuTc=; b=Znih89sglkmMuhcB44ygVg261snNqlPg3G/BZ5ufTb8kldt/L51J3CocX0QXyn5VTy 3KJaLQ2+5xwO3bzDGqsWWQJqe3R/ZpFN8lnYrVwa2shAnyOCaAdSRkiHNmZq/8eislt8 5P4eg+yso6NLIotxy0zBwA5pijTQ3aFSdkgfCXJi60Ll62yAFfZPauHdEK3ud2UKeuQv LUqAFmKGQcsl7eAc7ktvntQX53TtmlTc4GZrDSNXPzjO6HVh/zNzeAN1D4nxJMedVQeC trU2hJfB5v7Vj11X8ANbpySh2Qd437/Nnhe4YRXQAXGG7QqH+kAmK2oYKJGNKuXDKxP1 dZCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xbBGmoD7iE9bibTxvn/SxdUlvy4zE1drZUglgcNKuTc=; b=QKuJmmUyme3oR0ihWUoFPAqE8ZEt5hSDF3n7CGuBFiVDIOsrOB+4vPSy2ZIXsqB0df Y8RNtma0kHN7jqpuEG9e7kVg/ZJlo4hzUe/X2Ai+9mPO/IawRZuNCXB6r2GwgEwqvpz4 IMpsK4OfsZF6GKXhs2oaFnuKp5soeQu30dVOu8ZsRzVWHSktnzvfINNQeBk1INfGikeJ bPg3tW9/D8pDHLSRKHGlB6yOfFEScV45bSTRR92SIxZeVLLDmFpk7Y4kiWVXOPPC2JOf GqE9an4TzjM8EKVUu7h1N7Gmi7mMqq2RGC7SdsUbqA3xxXrhJV9HmJaYn7n5raQHxU+U W4mg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXDG1gHuTkGuHWOoyNFOzAl/KJVv6IQ5IL0BZE/MJ7DQEzPd2Kw GJ3doY5PtCQs4c/4i+wyLFQH4IKaxuAbZ+4Je7U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzRMJhYBOlBAUrxwhLjcYzZ+cjHoVz/LB8XxvzXijdreMQqfjHiyk9/MK4vFOqdyK0Bg1T7ClQT+V9t2Cj7Mw8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:24b:: with SMTP id m11mr314496oie.45.1568317201112; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:40:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <076701d56978$86020910$92061b30$@php.net> <467be4a0-dd8b-29d2-0b09-a3efd7fad56a@heigl.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:39:42 +0100 Message-ID: To: Chase Peeler Cc: Michael Babker , Internals Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aae3e30592604d40" X-Envelope-From: Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Changing fundamental language behaviors From: oludonsexy@gmail.com (Olumide Samson) --000000000000aae3e30592604d40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:29 PM Chase Peeler wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 3:17 PM Olumide Samson > wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:11 PM Michael Babker >> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 2:06 PM Olumide Samson >> > wrote: >> > >> >> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:00 PM Michael Babker < >> michael.babker@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:51 PM Peter Kokot >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > Just a dumb idea, since there clearly is a majority in favor of the >> >>> > change with these warnings and strictness and all that now... Why >> not >> >>> > making something like an LTS PHP 7.x where all the legacy code would >> >>> > work OK as long as practically possible and 8.x+ would be the future >> >>> > of what the developers want and not what business wants? One who >> won't >> >>> > upgrade due to the BC breaks also won't need the new features anyway >> >>> > very realistically. >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> Please don't tie the notion of LTS with the idea that a new major can >> >>> break >> >>> BC at will or create larger scale breaks because the previous major >> has >> >>> extended support. Sooner or later that will end up back at the ++ >> idea >> >>> and >> >>> fragmentation encouraged by the language is a bad idea. >> >>> >> >> >> >> Not sure you are really seeing the goal... >> >> >> >> Why is LTS not a good idea? >> >> >> > >> > I'm not saying LTS is a bad idea. I'm saying using LTS to justify >> > shipping larger scale BC breaks, such as the changes suggested in the >> last >> > couple of "contentious" RFCs in a major version because "hey, we have a >> LTS >> > version you can use that until you're ready to deal with the backlog of >> BC >> > breaks created" is a bad idea. >> > >> >> >> > For the record, I happen to agree with as these RFCs would have minimal >> > impact on my day-to-day work, but having also been in the role of a >> > maintainer of open source libraries and applications I also grasp why >> these >> > types of changes can be problematic to the ecosystem (both end users of >> > those libraries and applications and the maintainers of them) and >> wouldn't >> > jump the gun to ship them without careful consideration. >> > >> >> Most of these changes wouldn't have been problematic to you if the >> language >> has prevented you from writing what we can now consider bad code, so >> please >> allow the new PHP developer that newly start using PHP to not follow that >> your path that will/might hunt him later in the future... >> >> > Many of us don't consider it bad code. I've also always initialized > variables when it was required (and many times when it wasn't) even though > I wasn't forced to do so. A lot of other people do as well. If it's so > important to you, start a program to teach people how you think they should > code. > > >> There a notices, warning and errors to inform you that this shouldn't have >> been the use case of this feature and you chose to ignore it and now, we >> are simplifying things and making those your errors teach you how to write >> proper codes in the future, you're objecting.. > > > As has been discussed before, notices are not the same as warnings and > errors. Also, if those things are so wonderful, why can't you use them to > catch the issues you are complaining you can't catch right now? Again, you > are telling me there is something out there which will allow you to force > yourself to write "good code" without forcing me to follow the same > restrictions. Yet, you still feel it's necessary to not use those tools, > and instead modify the entire language so that I am forced to follow what > you deem best practices, even if I don't? > > > >> Why not just stay in PHP 7.x? >> >> Because other features that I want to utilize will also be added in PHP > 8. > > I think it's all up to you to decide if those features you need would be worth it moving to PHP 8(perhaps helping you clean up some codes i would seem as bad practice IMO) or those features are not worth cleaning up for( then you can stay on PHP 7, even 5 for as long as you wan to)... In all of these, those who would upgrade would do so and those who won't would never upgrade coz they don't see good reasons to or such codes are not more in maintenance... > Or were you implying you want hitch-free, no-modification upgrade to PHP 8 >> from PHP 7.0? >> > > I never said that. Here we go again with the "I guess you are against all > BC breaks" nonsense. If BC breaks are required to add new functionality, > or, have a very minimal negative impact, then I don't have a problem with > them. This is not one of those cases. It changes a fundamental aspect of > the language, an aspect that many people actually like, and it doesn't add > any new features to the language, nor is it needed to add any new features > to the language. > > >> If yes, follow the best practices and not suppress error notices. >> >> Just My Opinion >> > > > -- > Chase Peeler > chasepeeler@gmail.com > I think i also have some stuffs to do off this list, perhaps i might check the list later before bed or wheni get home. Have a nice time voting as you deem fit and as you best think would be good for you and everyone(maybe?). --000000000000aae3e30592604d40--