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In-Reply-To: <CAAwbVucrOBgVtC8BZe7KTJtj79He53XXxQ0WKGFTKFvL_pg40Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:29:19 -0400
Message-ID: <CAPKYkKwcPEeKJyAvRy2ojU-+enODGkZKwkaXT-99wnH87TLF+w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Olumide Samson <oludonsexy@gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Babker <michael.babker@gmail.com>, Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Changing fundamental language behaviors
From: chasepeeler@gmail.com (Chase Peeler)

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On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 3:17 PM Olumide Samson <oludonsexy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:11 PM Michael Babker <michael.babker@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 2:06 PM Olumide Samson <oludonsexy@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:00 PM Michael Babker <
> michael.babker@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:51 PM Peter Kokot <peterkokot@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Just a dumb idea, since there clearly is a majority in favor of the
> >>> > change with these warnings and strictness and all that now... Why not
> >>> > making something like an LTS PHP 7.x where all the legacy code would
> >>> > work OK as long as practically possible and 8.x+ would be the future
> >>> > of what the developers want and not what business wants? One who
> won't
> >>> > upgrade due to the BC breaks also won't need the new features anyway
> >>> > very realistically.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> Please don't tie the notion of LTS with the idea that a new major can
> >>> break
> >>> BC at will or create larger scale breaks because the previous major has
> >>> extended support.  Sooner or later that will end up back at the ++ idea
> >>> and
> >>> fragmentation encouraged by the language is a bad idea.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not sure you are really seeing the goal...
> >>
> >> Why is LTS not a good idea?
> >>
> >
> > I'm not saying LTS is a bad idea.  I'm saying using LTS to justify
> > shipping larger scale BC breaks, such as the changes suggested in the
> last
> > couple of "contentious" RFCs in a major version because "hey, we have a
> LTS
> > version you can use that until you're ready to deal with the backlog of
> BC
> > breaks created" is a bad idea.
> >
>
>
> > For the record, I happen to agree with as these RFCs would have minimal
> > impact on my day-to-day work, but having also been in the role of a
> > maintainer of open source libraries and applications I also grasp why
> these
> > types of changes can be problematic to the ecosystem (both end users of
> > those libraries and applications and the maintainers of them) and
> wouldn't
> > jump the gun to ship them without careful consideration.
> >
>
> Most of these changes wouldn't have been problematic to you if the language
> has prevented you from writing what we can now consider bad code, so please
> allow the new PHP developer that newly start using PHP to not follow that
> your path that will/might hunt him later in the future...
>
>
Many of us don't consider it bad code. I've also always initialized
variables when it was required (and many times when it wasn't) even though
I wasn't forced to do so. A lot of other people do as well. If it's so
important to you, start a program to teach people how you think they should
code.


> There a notices, warning and errors to inform you that this shouldn't have
> been the use case of this feature and you chose to ignore it and now, we
> are simplifying things and making those your errors teach you how to write
> proper codes in the future, you're objecting..


As has been discussed before, notices are not the same as warnings and
errors.  Also, if those things are so wonderful, why can't you use them to
catch the issues you are complaining you can't catch right now? Again, you
are telling me there is something out there which will allow you to force
yourself to write "good code" without forcing me to follow the same
restrictions. Yet, you still feel it's necessary to not use those tools,
and instead modify the entire language so that I am forced to follow what
you deem best practices, even if I don't?



> Why not just stay in PHP 7.x?
>
> Because other features that I want to utilize will also be added in PHP
8.

Or were you implying you want hitch-free, no-modification upgrade to PHP 8
> from PHP 7.0?
>

I never said that. Here we go again with the "I guess you are against all
BC breaks" nonsense. If BC breaks are required to add new functionality,
or, have a very minimal negative impact, then I don't have a problem with
them. This is not one of those cases. It changes a fundamental aspect of
the language, an aspect that many people actually like, and it doesn't add
any new features to the language, nor is it needed to add any new features
to the language.


> If yes, follow the best practices and not suppress error notices.
>
> Just My Opinion
>


-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepeeler@gmail.com

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