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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 18:39:34 +0100
Message-ID: <CAAwbVudFMThRjxASCKDnwpXWt-Euv5VEYtN4XdsqXb5GBSiCig@mail.gmail.com>
To: Chase Peeler <chasepeeler@gmail.com>
Cc: Matthew Brown <matthewmatthew@gmail.com>, Scott Arciszewski <scott@paragonie.com>, 
	Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net>, Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>, 
	PHP Internals List <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Changing fundamental language behaviors
From: oludonsexy@gmail.com (Olumide Samson)

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On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 6:22 PM Chase Peeler <chasepeeler@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:05 PM Matthew Brown <matthewmatthew@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > that don't fundamentally change the language
> >
> >
> > There's clearly a big disagreement about whether this is a fundamental
> > change or not.
> >
> > Preventing something that the entire field of software engineering frowns
> > upon (and that most PHP developers avoid like the plague) doesn't seem
> like
> > a *fundamental* change.
> >
> >
> I would argue that this is exactly such a change. The flexibility of PHP
> has often been touted as a feature and something that sets it apart.
> Whether that's good or bad is, frankly, irrelevant. There are valid reasons
> for not always initializing variables or array keys.

 The major valid reason i see is creating a bolierplate or being lazy to
initialize the variable with even null or similar null-type depending on
its context.

It might be a bad reason in your opinion, but others view it as perfectly
> acceptable.

 Who are those "others"?
I think he(me included) is also one of those "others" that view it as bad
programming style...

For 20 years people have developed code based on that feature. It was never
> considered an error, and often not even considered bad practice.

 It was considered an error, that's why you were been warned or given
notice that "Hey dude, you're writing a bad code here @ line 1427(l4zy) of
already-problematic-file.php" and only if we want to remove Notice,Warning
or Error in the language.


> To suddenly define it as such is the exact definition of a fundamental
> change
> to the language itself.
>
Fundamental is always "fundamental", i think there's no good definition for
it in this context, so leave fundamental changes out of this discussion as
something totally bad been cleaned up is a fundamental change and something
new but not used right and changed to be used right is also fundamental...


>
> What if Java suddenly said that all properties are suddenly private, and
> can only be accessed through getter/setter methods? The fact that you
> should make properties private and use such methods is a practice that was
> drilled into me from day one. Would that justify making such a change,
> though?
>
> I'm not sure how this relates, i think Java would let you see the good or
bad, it's up to you to see or not from their view, let the majority move
forward and don't be a stopping stone in moving this language past the 1993
bondage(needle-haystack, inconsistent naming and many issues we couldn't
count)...

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