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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:07:44 -0400
Message-ID: <CAPKYkKwxuPek1A3=G1U5tNz0kpzheam7w14seej4kBLRxorbmQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
Cc: Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>, Rowan Tommins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>, 
	PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000043d405925baa5d"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Reclassifying engine warnings
From: chasepeeler@gmail.com (Chase Peeler)

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On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:02 AM Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
wrote:

> =D1=87=D1=82, 12 =D1=81=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=82. 2019 =D0=B3. =D0=B2 15:33, Mar=
co Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hey Rowan,
> > <http://ocramius.github.com/>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 3:30 PM Rowan Tommins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > For instance, for undefined array keys, what if we had an operator fo=
r
> > > "initialise and retrieve", such as $foo[? 'bar']. Then we could
> simplify
> > > ugly code like this:
> > >
> > > if ( ! isset($foo[$key1]) {
> > >    $foo[$key1] =3D [];
> > > }
> > > if ( ! isset($foo[$key1][$key2]) {
> > >    $foo[$key1][$key2] =3D 0;
> > > }
> > > $foo[$key1][$key2]++;
> > >
> > >
> > > With something safe but succinct like this:
> > >
> > > $foo[? $key1][? $key2]++;
> > >
> >
> > $foo[$key1][$key2] =3D ($foo[$key1][$key2] ?? 0) + 1;
> >
> > Marco Pivetta
> >
> > http://twitter.com/Ocramius
> >
> > http://ocramius.github.com/
> >
>
> This message contains a healthy dose of sarcasm.
>
> Hi Marko and Rowan :)
>
> *Me reviewing the PR with that code*
> *Clicks "Changes required"
> [ Please rewrite this statement into easy readable format with an if ]
> * Clicks send *
>
> Think what you must, but 6 months when you come back to code like this yo=
u
> have to stop, look at it hard and figure out what the hell actually happe=
ns
> there.
> Breaks reading flow.
>
> One thing I like PHP for is a distinct lack of huge amounts of syntax
> sugar.
> Take Ruby - it's a hell to read the code. Even Vagrantfile has tons of
> results about what syntax for arrays to use and things breaking because y=
ou
> end up mixing stuff and you get at least 4 different answers to the same
> question and it looks like all are correct. Confusing as hell :)
>
> What I'm trying to say is some of us choose PHP for it's "there is one
> syntax - use it". If people want syntax sugar - there are other languages
> that fit that much better. Leave us, peasants, in our peasant non-syntax
> sugar world alone :D
>
> Exactly. One common theme I've been seeing is "We already force our
developers to initialize variables, so, whats the big deal if you have to?"
or "We already force a no-notice environment, so what's the big deal if you
have to?"

If you're already doing it, then why do you feel the need to force others
to? You've proven that it can be done in the current system.

I'm making my prediction now - if this RFC passes, the adoption rate for
PHP 8 is going to be HORRIBLE.


> But many of us would also like the language engine to tighten up some of
> its extremely relaxed parts that do not fit in modern development
> environments and the lowest bar of the code quality rise a bit. Otherwise=
,
> the gap between high-end development and newbies is going to be even bigg=
er
> than it is now.
> I hire people, that's part of my job. One of the criteria is the approach
> to errors/warning/notices. Imagine how that goes.
>
> --
> Arv=C4=ABds Godjuks
>
> +371 26 851 664
> arvids.godjuks@gmail.com
> Skype: psihius
> Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius
>


--=20
Chase Peeler
chasepeeler@gmail.com

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