Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:106537 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 15144 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2019 07:04:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail-ot1-f45.google.com) (209.85.210.45) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2019 07:04:02 -0000 Received: by mail-ot1-f45.google.com with SMTP id j7so2931329ota.9 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 21:31:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=l6nK1gelcxGqEsi45cc+NiifgdAnWcaTEgDNCSKIBPU=; b=XtF29rKJ5mg9YTkrK7PJRb0JcvkJZ022bDRyrsvHqoOFgC21TU/dQ5rXzYR1ykFpii dfD2oHVtSeRwQhqDC3kklfUtJ3+zX4zGK0YHKFOrlZ5DZjQA7DNRPOw9mInqhNswVqpt 8dyqvJLfY6EdbgWaaellUYut6igK5axtBeCkEkIApRvwuuoLSDxh7iOjPkyCTSy+JxX8 oavI0CrmoNMP+H8XXHGp90VnSxN6LacUsJZGrr/uGg3NcAWr1sibtW8bYf7oy9RUrRKt BlefRLjJjjJ/cNzpKRnjOc/BAUPByqewLsVwn9nCAk973vTZw4dQ0XQFHQchNLxgDhOW /ejw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date :message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=l6nK1gelcxGqEsi45cc+NiifgdAnWcaTEgDNCSKIBPU=; b=pbrHdCWtm7/e4s5kCF7liu43JzYbGvM9a6iWt4JwWerxStIREtWtyvWKCEfHIFYpFz xJUCiUzovwzaoU5PYpP27g/EXFiLUbd23l8qQIU7eRcYlDurQnINmY1JmRwTiPeBbxkV pIcISC9AawpePJ3RFDj0EKOLbyYwVOt0vwRSYuHH+E4eANyvQR6zXsSRWrD0LeTcPFx/ CZWsJcNzMGdsN4I2zEno0VHLLn71tZokxdoyviyqtKC9eT3Nbx1KpRUTKwlRgA8KbCAw CFaWRQbCHAmHAMV5aGmYaE+2ai+gCkp+8Ejo15828fTVaJkgXL1RXovB9ZskW6D+HdTp m2ow== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV2lqlB3YrNfpV1QqePLHQM2RTvuaICxOyT4TORxLsokfiHje3M 2yPPDuDlaxsQ3oAYAI+0cjQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy7MCXndyKCjGy+ig3dSkcwjYgiANfKTdM1OIqnwcDHB+2CoNthMB9gR+82euONqQmHagmkNA== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8ed7:: with SMTP id q206mr21211736iod.120.1565497910918; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 21:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DM5PR07MB3563.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:4:68::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i4sm126219537iog.31.2019.08.10.21.31.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 21:31:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Zeev Suraski , Internals Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] P++: FAQ Thread-Index: AUEwbXdLLdlMzOHX1/p9J+BFtDszK6g/HhZH X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 04:31:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM5PR07MB3563BE82D7366874935CCDDBF2D00DM5PR07MB3563namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] P++: FAQ From: andigutmans@gmail.com (Andi Gutmans) --_000_DM5PR07MB3563BE82D7366874935CCDDBF2D00DM5PR07MB3563namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I must admit that the first time I read Zeev=92s email I got anxious... but= it is frustrating that PHP has a WAY better runtime than Python and most o= ther dynamic languages yet is falling out of fashion. It=92s strange given = how much better it actually runs (really being unbiased here). One reason i= s security perception (which is BS but perception matters) and the second i= s arguably some of the historic baggage which makes some folks feel PHP is = hard to master without a manual (we have the best manual). So many times I have thought =93is it time to just take an axe and simplify= it and do a cleanup?=94. I actually don=92t think we lack many features bu= t rather lots of stuff I would dump like references, array(), global namesp= ace for functions(?), type juggling in areas where we should be stricter, e= tc... I actually think that having a p++ is risky but it is an opportunity.= I think it=92s mostly be an opportunity if we=92d be careful about feature= bloat and try and be really aggressive about removing things and cleaning = up. We potentially would get the significant benefits of our runtime but wi= th a cleaner language. Will non-PHP appreciate it? maybe, maybe not... I ac= tually do think there=92s value of a different brand just because of the BS= perception issues... Andi Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Zeev Suraski Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 12:54 PM To: Internals Subject: [PHP-DEV] P++: FAQ During the discussion of the P++ proposal ( https://externals.io/message/106453), it became painfully clear that this idea did little, so far, to bring peace to the galaxy. However, based on a lot of the feedback, both on internals@ and elsewhere - it seems that a lot of people simply didn't really understand what this idea was actually proposing to do. I'll take the blame for that - by not making the idea sufficiently clear. I went on and create an FAQ, that attempts to address many of the questions and common misconceptions that repeatedly came up. It's available here: https://wiki.php.net/pplusplus/faq Before you read it, I want to stress that this is an attempt to provide *everyone with a good deal, and nobody with a raw deal. *It doesn't mean it's successful at that (although I think it is) - but the motivation is clean and positive. If & when you read this FAQ, please try to read it without any preconceived notions. If there are additional questions that you think are missing, please let me know - or better yet, if you're up for constructively adding them - go ahead and do that. Thanks, Zeev --_000_DM5PR07MB3563BE82D7366874935CCDDBF2D00DM5PR07MB3563namp_--