Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:106475
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 10:39:53 +0300
To: Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>, Kris Craig
 <kris.craig@gmail.com>
Cc: Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net>, Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Message-ID: <8a95f23e-4145-46ee-ba49-6c24c32c8243@Spark>
In-Reply-To: <CAKOpQSyWcge-6D9bu+bsJx=JdJ45MJd4KiqAuXzjQhTpWP4q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHtznz+vMtytUxnf73L474TcDUqsZpTHLTnhHL4E53CCQdibA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF+90c-5CeZfyo2zBeoM63NDK-j2h6WTjvdT-yiKy040wVUm-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJHtznzFSP4u7HggZPmyi27ejUie6x+kUytvTCd+WTpsKwFwag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF+90c8Ws-Ap2Ztw87gBS3bn_dKq+c+eNtAL90SCgqWhwsJCwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKOpQSyWcge-6D9bu+bsJx=JdJ45MJd4KiqAuXzjQhTpWP4q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5d4d234e_216231b_66e6"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy
From: sergey@s-panteleev.ru (Sergey Panteleev)

--5d4d234e_216231b_66e6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

As I understand, in P++ it was planned to drop the legacy code, add new f=
unctionality and painlessly implement BC.

Who wants =E2=80=93 migrates the PHP project in P++, who doesn't =E2=80=93=
 continues to use PHP.

New projects, for example, will use P++ already.

Well, how is this different from the new version of PHP (e.g. PHP 9)=3F

Who wants =E2=80=93 adapts his code for PHP 8/9 with all its BCs, who doe=
sn't =E2=80=93 continued to use PHP 7/8.

Because this discussion flows smoothly from a neighboring branch, let me =
remind you that a few percentages of users who continue to use short tags=
 were discussed there.

Perhaps the same percentage of users will remain in PHP instead of the di=
scussed P++.

Will the development of a new language be justified due to the few percen=
tages of users=3F

=E2=80=94
Sincerely,
Sergey Panteleev
https://s-panteleev.ru
Telegram: =40saundefined
E-mail: sergey=40s-panteleev.ru
On 9 Aug 2019, 10:33 +0300, Kris Craig <kris.craig=40gmail.com>, wrote:
> On =46ri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:22 AM Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv=40gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:25 PM Zeev Suraski <zeev=40php.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On =46ri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:02 AM Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv=40gmail.=
com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is basically what I have been advocating for a while now alr=
eady,
> > > > somewhat hidden between all the other noise of the =22namespace-s=
coped
> > > > declares=22 thread. The model I would like to follow are Rust edi=
tions (
> > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html). In =
PHP
> > > > right now, the way to do this technically would be based on a
> > > > declare(edition=3D2020) in every file. I was hoping to make this =
a
> > > > per-package declaration instead, but haven't found the perfect wa=
y to do
> > > > this right now.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think it's similar, but not quite the same, at least as far as wh=
at I
> > > understood from what you were saying on that thread (I just reread =
it).
> > > =46irst, I think it's important we don't only focus on what we're g=
oing to
> > > change - but also on what we're going to keep. The motivation shoul=
d not
> > > be slow eventual migration from one codebase to another. We would h=
ave
> > > two, long-term supported codebases - a lot closer to C and C++ than=
 to
> > > different editions of a single language. The distance between them =
would
> > > be quite substantial from the get-go - and will likely grow farther=
 as
> > time
> > > goes by, similarly to the situation with C and C++.
> > >
> >
> > I think this part is unrealistic from a simple manpower perspective. =
We
> > have something like =7E2 full time developers working on PHP. Even if=
 you can
> > rally some additional interest around this idea, I don't think we hav=
e the
> > resources to create a *substantially* different language in any reaso=
nable
> > amount of time. Doing feature additions and changes to PHP is Hard. E=
ven
> > simple changes require a fair bit of design and engineering effort to=

> > integrate with the large complexity of the existing language. This wo=
uld
> > not change for a hypothetical P++, because we still need to interoper=
ate
> > with PHP.
> >
> > Even if I agreed with the idea (which I'm pretty skeptical about in t=
his
> > particular form), I really don't think we have the resources to do
> > something like this.
> >
> > Nikita
> >
> >
> I think it should also be pointed out that there's nothing stopping any=
one
> from forking PHP into a new project as Zeev described and maintain feat=
ure
> parity. As I understand, the reason something like this hasn't happened=

> already is because it would involve a ton of work and nobody wants to d=
eal
> with it. But if you or anyone else does manage to put a team together a=
nd
> make something like this happen as a separate project, I'd certainly ha=
ve
> no objection.
>
> --Kris

--5d4d234e_216231b_66e6--