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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 09:38:18 +0200
Message-ID: <CAOwTYAsaRoCeco=jQ8Na=-4QzUmBdNsLJksUuHHqbm2D-jSa9A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kris Craig <kris.craig@gmail.com>
Cc: Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>, Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net>, 
	Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy
From: krakjoe@gmail.com (Joe Watkins)

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*alongside patch

Cheers
Joe

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, 09:33 Kris Craig, <kris.craig@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:22 AM Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:25 PM Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:02 AM Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> This is basically what I have been advocating for a while now already,
> > >> somewhat hidden between all the other noise of the "namespace-scoped
> > >> declares" thread. The model I would like to follow are Rust editions (
> > >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html). In PHP
> > >> right now, the way to do this technically would be based on a
> > >> declare(edition=2020) in every file. I was hoping to make this a
> > >> per-package declaration instead, but haven't found the perfect way to
> do
> > >> this right now.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I think it's similar, but not quite the same, at least as far as what I
> > > understood from what you were saying on that thread (I just reread it).
> > > First, I think it's important we don't only focus on what we're going
> to
> > > change - but also on what we're going to keep.  The motivation should
> not
> > > be slow eventual migration from one codebase to another.  We would have
> > > two, long-term supported codebases - a lot closer to C and C++ than to
> > > different editions of a single language.  The distance between them
> would
> > > be quite substantial from the get-go - and will likely grow farther as
> > time
> > > goes by, similarly to the situation with C and C++.
> > >
> >
> > I think this part is unrealistic from a simple manpower perspective. We
> > have something like ~2 full time developers working on PHP. Even if you
> can
> > rally some additional interest around this idea, I don't think we have
> the
> > resources to create a *substantially* different language in any
> reasonable
> > amount of time. Doing feature additions and changes to PHP is Hard. Even
> > simple changes require a fair bit of design and engineering effort to
> > integrate with the large complexity of the existing language. This would
> > not change for a hypothetical P++, because we still need to interoperate
> > with PHP.
> >
> > Even if I agreed with the idea (which I'm pretty skeptical about in this
> > particular form), I really don't think we have the resources to do
> > something like this.
> >
> > Nikita
> >
> >
> I think it should also be pointed out that there's nothing stopping anyone
> from forking PHP into a new project as Zeev described and maintain feature
> parity.  As I understand, the reason something like this hasn't happened
> already is because it would involve a ton of work and nobody wants to deal
> with it.  But if you or anyone else does manage to put a team together and
> make something like this happen as a separate project, I'd certainly have
> no objection.
>
> --Kris
>

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