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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 00:33:04 -0700
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To: Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>
Cc: Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net>, Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy
From: kris.craig@gmail.com (Kris Craig)

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On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:22 AM Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:25 PM Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:02 AM Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> This is basically what I have been advocating for a while now already,
> >> somewhat hidden between all the other noise of the "namespace-scoped
> >> declares" thread. The model I would like to follow are Rust editions (
> >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html). In PHP
> >> right now, the way to do this technically would be based on a
> >> declare(edition=2020) in every file. I was hoping to make this a
> >> per-package declaration instead, but haven't found the perfect way to do
> >> this right now.
> >>
> >
> > I think it's similar, but not quite the same, at least as far as what I
> > understood from what you were saying on that thread (I just reread it).
> > First, I think it's important we don't only focus on what we're going to
> > change - but also on what we're going to keep.  The motivation should not
> > be slow eventual migration from one codebase to another.  We would have
> > two, long-term supported codebases - a lot closer to C and C++ than to
> > different editions of a single language.  The distance between them would
> > be quite substantial from the get-go - and will likely grow farther as
> time
> > goes by, similarly to the situation with C and C++.
> >
>
> I think this part is unrealistic from a simple manpower perspective. We
> have something like ~2 full time developers working on PHP. Even if you can
> rally some additional interest around this idea, I don't think we have the
> resources to create a *substantially* different language in any reasonable
> amount of time. Doing feature additions and changes to PHP is Hard. Even
> simple changes require a fair bit of design and engineering effort to
> integrate with the large complexity of the existing language. This would
> not change for a hypothetical P++, because we still need to interoperate
> with PHP.
>
> Even if I agreed with the idea (which I'm pretty skeptical about in this
> particular form), I really don't think we have the resources to do
> something like this.
>
> Nikita
>
>
I think it should also be pointed out that there's nothing stopping anyone
from forking PHP into a new project as Zeev described and maintain feature
parity.  As I understand, the reason something like this hasn't happened
already is because it would involve a ton of work and nobody wants to deal
with it.  But if you or anyone else does manage to put a team together and
make something like this happen as a separate project, I'd certainly have
no objection.

--Kris

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