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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 18:21:24 +0200
Message-ID: <CAL0xaBFjLFO5eDSPkTTUm6QDJOTt-Sy7TDDxLsHK1iO8-w9SKg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Bowyer <reywob@php.net>
Cc: Peter Kokot <peterkokot@gmail.com>, Chase Peeler <chasepeeler@gmail.com>, 
	Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net>, Brent <brendt@stitcher.io>, Internals <internals@lists.php.net>, 
	=?UTF-8?Q?C=C3=B4me_Chilliet?= <come@opensides.be>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again
From: arvids.godjuks@gmail.com (Arvids Godjuks)

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=D1=87=D1=82, 8 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3. 2019 =D0=B3. =D0=B2 17:57, Peter Bowyer=
 <reywob@php.net>:

>
>
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 16:18, Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I really liked how language picked up the cleanup pace in the last few
>> years and it needs it. I finally see genuine interest in people to
>> actually
>> either come back or pick it up instead of JavaScript (NodeJS) and other
>> fancy new shiny stuff. And a lot of it is because of the cleanup efforts
>> and WTF?! removal, the language having the option to be stricter
>>
>
> Are you sure assigning this interest to cleanup efforts is not a
> correlation without causation?
>
> Other reasons interest in PHP can be growing:
> 1. We've got better libraries, frameworks and tooling in userland PHP tha=
n
> we used to have.
> 2. The hype cycle is wearing off NodeJS
> 3. people are slowly letting go of their outdated memories of what writin=
g
> PHP / PHP code written by inexperienced programmers was like
>
> Peter
>

Everything is a contributor obviously, but in my personal experience the
one that really makes waves is when I tell people about "strict_types" and
"type hints". That really shocks people and make them look at 7.1+ with a
completely different attitude.

I mean I'm not claiming this is statistically sound data of a wide slice of
PHP users, but I do know quite a lot of somewhat closeted PHP developers
who do not show any public activity and just silently consume PHP and I'm
reluctantly playing the role of news gateway on what's new in PHP world. I
encouraged a few for years to move to better companies cause they were
stuck in a dead-end and just did not knew what is out there. No amount of
keeping the BC would make migrations to new versions in those environments
an easy task - stuff always broke, always in production, because devs had
no say or sometimes even did not know they are upgrading after the fact.

This is why I do not like excessive keeping of BC - there will always going
to be users like that, even major users, whom you do not suspect, but it is
a cl***k behind the scenes and that user can do 9-10 digit turnover a year.
Proper announcements, proper depreciation period, documentation update and
strong upgrade node message should cover everyone who is ready to listen
and understand. There are multiple tools to do short tag to long tar
conversion in bulk. I thought it was agreed years ago that runtime switches
that affect engine behaviour in a major way were bad and should be
eventually removed. And portable code version is using `<?php` and `<?=3D`,
that has been the case for a long time now. I don't know anyone anymore who
does not know that.

Sorry for a bit of a rant.

P.S. Dealing with a somewhat small but complicated NodeJS project - wholly
molly do we have it good in PHP world compared :)
--=20
Arv=C4=ABds Godjuks

+371 26 851 664
arvids.godjuks@gmail.com
Skype: psihius
Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius

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