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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 12:28:36 +0200
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To: Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com>
Cc: Rowan Collins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>, PHP Internals List <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax
From: nikita.ppv@gmail.com (Nikita Popov)

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On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:01 AM Nicolas Grekas <
nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com> wrote:

> Le mar. 30 juil. 2019 =C3=A0 10:34, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins@gmail.co=
m> a
> =C3=A9crit :
>
> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 07:14, Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I think enough time has passed since php4's call-by-ref for the synta=
x
> to
> > > be
> > > reused now. I think it's unfair to call the RFC a reminiscent of
> > > call-by-ref BTW.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Firstly, please let's stop calling this a "PHP 4" feature. It was fully
> > supported right up to 5.2, deprecated in 5.3, and only removed in 5.4.
> >
> > Secondly, I completely disagree that it's unfair to compare the two. Th=
e
> > syntax being proposed in this RFC (& at both call-site and
> definition-site)
> > was supported by versions prior to PHP 5.4. Those versions left it
> optional
> > at either side, which was certainly a mistake; but it was perfectly
> > possible (and probably common) for coding standards to require it in bo=
th
> > locations.
> >
> > It might be a good idea to include a more thorough discussion of this
> > history in the RFC.
> >
>
> Call-time pass-by-reference is deprecated since PHP 4.3.0 and triggers a
> deprecation warning since then:
> https://3v4l.org/MFXsJ
>
> That's since Dec 2002.
>

Disclaimer: I started using PHP somewhere around PHP 5.2 times and have
never encountered call-time pass-by-reference as anything but a historical
concern, so I'm finding it somewhat hard to empathize with the associated
emotional baggage the issue may have.

With that in mind, I don't see an issue with reusing the previous call-time
pass-by-ref syntax here. The & at the call-site still means that the value
is going to be passed by refrence (or error), so it's not like someone who
was around during the call-time pass-by-ref times would misunderstand what
the code does based on their prior knowledge.

The only concern I see here is the emotional issue: Bringing & back as a
call-site annotation is an admission that the original migration of by-ref
passing has been badly botched: Yes, you removed those & at the call-site
for nothing. Yes, you shouldn't have been forced to do that!

Mistakes happen and hindsight is 20/20. But we should own up to those
mistakes.

Regards,
Nikita

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