Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:106313 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 60932 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2019 21:56:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail-pf1-f179.google.com) (209.85.210.179) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2019 21:56:58 -0000 Received: by mail-pf1-f179.google.com with SMTP id q10so26848173pff.9 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gtngs7fQ/Ivtr327gz4cmfF2yndNHYWkHN313GNJ7X0=; b=oSqbxNBGaQ+dqYaVy3qbG8TfvFtDJMXIu52HYDYtTQOFdPD3IhPkT77RZJBvRkOh+1 5hYhbj/0oxiLqbjmzFsfJZBFQLUgIjWQVtY88bueQPMrdzOs9L3PKAPSi4jdWx0GjmB2 7PYt5l17uxUwanJicAAJCrfuM+z+F/cVZvLq/6l80adBW6Bt+sZTYMYfA3b+RePqFxGf qOZva7gPdeFpSXgYhZmMbeZTuj3h5UX4KxvOrtlTXT77LdUN2oY0qaAZST0pKSKbL3GE dJVK4BFjfXC9Y7xPBGz2ObdtkKvf54sQ6IjR+Wrq7j4P+YNobZeiVN7Tv/1k/vNYj9fQ KoOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gtngs7fQ/Ivtr327gz4cmfF2yndNHYWkHN313GNJ7X0=; b=F4n5ubAT6rcSzUY1PT6iU/01vW2yKjOPn2WgBWiXty72V3wWoMBEebPvcoXOcrJ7SE uI0SPqeJCQsV3f5ms1erapJzKsrmPyHrXPOly6dUrqGmqWOb/Cwpujyw0YmWHmtJzgNv 5yGxn8zDcnp8+6xtDHLRMhc6SnRUwzrd5BKiMsBq8uomLrqmQiqCbhOU/p+0PLsWSNPw G0zE5ErrDCZ4qHIxmys8HIAFMtA68RykMT2g7e6EmOL2yLuCQBPKoB5BO/zH1MrRPx+k Ch9VBJsDyB4+uNooE2OrXu0H7ZtIk0Aas9KA2nuqAeRN2lGW5i9mQTi1IIwq7nG7j8Ri Foyg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVoXk2UZsJ7mEzPBKzhgvCtVCIjnC1ujv8GXHyOmLqWgaNZt17P 0WfyPA3wQ+IGk7tfFqLgtZ4pW7MP5Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxSuAW7vuWNmOgLItjyYgYkto4kmHpG5SYdNy1dtL6j2JuV01tj/gszlX9enFsz7ZLCCwklzA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:69c1:: with SMTP id e184mr97331534pgc.198.1564341684844; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Stas-Pro-2016.local (c-24-4-176-254.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.4.176.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v12sm52434609pgr.86.2019.07.28.12.21.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Dan Ackroyd Cc: PHP internals References: <0143be10-1dff-58dc-818b-23e76345406f@gmail.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=smalyshev@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQMuBE9mqaARCACFSqcGmNunkjQQu3X+yXnTmFeEkvM4JXZTOBdR8aEevNGmmFEfyvjaDjWi 9hcwp4E/lYtC+P7VsVjM1OSX9eq0jC/lGL0ZyRXek+mNy0n5H1NSuTpf9Y18LMqhc4G+RU+L cNiZ9K0DJuOOvNLPxW7OHZguxb3wdKPXNVa2jyRfJAKm2uaJJMT1mTmFT9a0Q8SKr+mUrrJk uG0H2o6SzrKt8Wwoint1eh67zVsJaJtQFchnEZnlawIcqP2yC4nLGR3MkubowxoEBYCZet18 aHVVRbvpG2Qtob8Lu5xrsGbmXymTkHTdpvkfcJFADa8MzOL90zOxXwbGfbIZOlh5En8jAQCX lfnx2eQL3BSW/6XANa51dbWiEp1d1BAkpGKtZvlk0Qf+M9WAi+9aXMe3xP5krxtgnRNUf2WN 6Zdy2MxL1RRJCFbytLhl0ronC49BsGYVGshdEH8xhBbiIOJKuVZ/DTl9bEm7P9c7CC7iJyVC khUAhouH6xzZQNLR+RU+QebYzXypVfl99Qk7EdMmr/WAZCHLuvanyqepC5EBsa3VnAfQemSN oBeGBKWWLiOsPjvS72+y1z4RUMAfXHn4l/sFMt8zt7/74AmJPwZquV41p4mPO12V4+xPyc6R sB84sfsk2QVivU8w8AkvGQeYjXoz7Iwao95+fWteVzZ36KRQvUckP8pGjHlDXnHxJ0HI1I/k OBZSjwRwUf0dd73y6erPhbLk+gf+NdI3H9KGJBzG5/rVyWKwUeQ9d5ud4jTJRkQGvAP5pg76 vEa9dogbpe4W5Z+0BfbiJSnQmQWSHiZddj/t33ptbup44Ck6ZTgdlmFYMLF1hR47PIZTDKER EuKYGci/vq8snZvEJP9YCw/TtiHcMdrMKcY/+Lp8lQO0GHLPB9glVhnC0db6l1Xpg1CMI8/R ozBMcij30EgATggC/y2zbiqAFoS9FN9nXPbe4phStqABEyeZ+nXudt7PUYTjVgcrqo8bHZCi sBobWC7OnKyUzxVxzUeuPkIfmZuzkLaMw2McQdvwwsNvQ0DzaLP30c1Xsm/7EIYJcOWpzlVJ 5QrdmE0/BbQyU3RhbmlzbGF2IE1hbHlzaGV2IChQSFAga2V5KSA8c21hbHlzaGV2QGdtYWls LmNvbT6IegQTEQgAIgUCT2aqtAIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQL3lW vF2gS12XMwD9HuRIolSwIK77u8EY461y2u6sbX36n5/uo/LDQuxoi3sA/0MvpnvzOhv9Iufv vsZEj3E7i3h+iD5648YMwfTFCij+uQINBE9mqaAQCADfZPMpjZkkGZj3BY/7ApoLq4mwqzbh +CpLXwNn20tFNvSXfb8RdeXvVEb7Scx+W9qYpiaun2iXJgCVH8fgpZpR856ulT1q6uCG++CX ubEvip/eJkZl93/84h04KQJwsgOrAh0Om3OePRn8Pr+++0LNS0EL8uX/YHeTOGOnnmTqYTey SBVFdov6L4mepddfjekicKQqhL7mZh/xuq29JijT0uNNX8v4vDWQDu5dlAcdd+uB3gcXMD/P ginD11zp+6wtrWCm/+yBqpvDwXQX5PGUnwvbRfl7Ay3MmwmoXiecZMg0dwTSc7e0lhB4HGRH ZdBMJB4rHUVGdzqujK/ctOvrAAMFB/0Utb76Qe6sCMlHxVAmeE/fbo7Pi05btZ/x01r67dHf aMSP0riCKJ7M0OW+jAXtu9+z/BVnYisW67WWfxl2cS5tZDgiHgJARXWUOO72+sScHP8KQmTl 1z16gyKbwY3SmyBkwcpOL35nhUWNLy93syPoY6sZUTikr2bZYukHDQ33XBPs4e6MbWKfsa9q aVmnlOF3k5UqChjutfHaEa4Q7VP4wBIpphHBi9MI16oJIzzBPbGl2uoedjwiZ6QeQZnSuOVY ZxU2d3lRA8PrtfFN1VSlpEm/VcAvtieHUYWHN0wOu+cp3Slr5XJVNjTjJhl28SlinMME54mK AGf2Ldr/dRwXiGEEGBEIAAkFAk9mqaACGwwACgkQL3lWvF2gS126EQD/VVd3FgjLKglClRQP zdfU847tqDK4zJjbmRv5vLLwoE0A+wbrQs7jVGU3NrS0AIl5vUmewpp2BKzSkepy23nWmejw Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:21:23 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Namespace-scoped declares, again From: smalyshev@gmail.com (Stanislav Malyshev) Hi! > As we've seen with the declare for strict types, libraries that want > to have strict mode, and libraries that want to have more type > juggling, are perfectly fine to live alongside each other, and can be > used just fine. You are assuming all the code is neatly organized in "libraries" that are closed packages that never intersect, never exchange code and can be completely isolated from one another. This may be the case in some applications, but it's in no way universal and there's a lot of PHP code that does not look like that. > I can't understand why someone would make the argument that evolving > the language like this is a bad thing. It's not evolving the language, it's splitting the language into a myriad of mutually incompatible sub-languages, so each piece of code has its own unique bitmask of settings it works with. Moreover, even that bitmask is not local - when you're reading the code, you'd have to check all encompassing filesystem hierarchy (with current idea) to see where the options bitmask if defined for every particular piece of code. > You're saying very negative things about a feature you would not have to use. I think it's time to retire the argument of "you don't have to use it". It's not some function that you don't have to call (and BTW I am seeing a massive push to eliminate those for some reason, and never hear that argument there!). It's a language level feature. PHP is an ecosystem, and if you introduce the feature, everybody is influenced by it, because now you have to be aware of the whole bitmask of options and consider every time which bitmask of options a particular code piece is requiring. If it was an ecosystem where code is compiled into binary packages, like C or Java, it won't be such a big deal - you just use the compiled package and never look and the code that produced it and couldn't be happier. But in an open-source ecosystem what encourages exchanging actual source code, this kind of language fragmentation is bad. > It's fine that you're not convinced that this is a great idea, but > please can you stop making the argument that because you don't want to > use a feature, no-one should be allowed to use it? Did you actually try to read my argument, of just decided to strawman it from the start? I never said anything like that. I said this feature is bad because it creates fragmentation in the language, not because "I don't want to use it". Please, at least try to address *my* arguments. I am spelling them out pretty verbosely, no need to put words in my mouth. -- Stas Malyshev smalyshev@gmail.com