Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:104254
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAOwTYAsePeRLZZVK=QKftoOtug2_F=5bsti56z2mJfBXP0u4rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF+90c8_LqpqBwsPtFnomdEOXniUGFY4UELG2bHQzPCrr19Fhw@mail.gmail.com> <84365f75-3335-d7fd-0aa2-e75a85b2579b@zend.com>
In-Reply-To: <84365f75-3335-d7fd-0aa2-e75a85b2579b@zend.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 17:31:19 +0100
Message-ID: <CAF+90c8-8GDVLDqJmrTcxPPe0oHUAYDKLmSHsZnRvQquvRrS0Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Dmitry Stogov <dmitry@zend.com>
Cc: Joe Watkins <krakjoe@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008b83b405813c420f"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins
From: nikita.ppv@gmail.com (Nikita Popov)

--0000000000008b83b405813c420f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:38 PM Dmitry Stogov <dmitry@zend.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/6/19 11:50 AM, Nikita Popov wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 1:59 PM Joe Watkins <krakjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Afternoon internals,
> >>
> >> Some time ago I brought up for discussion:
> >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins
> >>
> >> I intend to bring this up for vote in the next few days.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Joe
> >>
> >
> > After one day of heated discussion this thread has died down again. I'd
> > like to make sure that there are no further concerns here before this
> goes
> > to vote.
> >
> > Most of the discussion here has been around the question of whether or
> not
> > this should be part of Zeev's RFC (and it doesn't look like we're going
> to
> > agree on that one), but there has been little further discussion of the
> > proposal itself. I guess that means it's fairly uncontroversial.
> >
> > As far as I can see the only difference between this proposal and Zeev's
> > (as far as voting margins are concerned), is that this RFC requires a 2/3
> > majority, while Zeev's proposal excludes "PHP Packaging Decisions" and
> only
> > requires a simple majority for them.
> >
> > There has been some brief discussion about this, with the following mail
> > from Stas:
> >
> >> 1. Do we really need different classification of changes? I think having
> >> one single vote procedure would have larger benefit, and RFC that fails
> >> 2/3 requirement would be suspect anyway. RFCs can have parts - "whether
> >> we do it" and "how exactly we do it" - the former would be 2/3
> >> requirement, the latter can be simple plurality even - e.g. if we decide
> >> to have an extension for libfoobar, that should have 2/3 vote, but then
> >> decision between whether to name it foobar or barfoo can be decided by
> >> majority or plurality.
> >
> > And Zeev's response:
> >
> >> I think we do.  There are decisions where a 2/3 majority requirement
> makes
> >> no sense, as the vote itself is about a choice between two options that
> > are
> >> on the table, as opposed to deciding whether to do something or not.
> >> There aren't many such cases, but when they do occur - they tend to be
> >> important.
> >>
> >> The most obvious case I have in mind is that of the choice between PHP 6
> >> and 7.  It doesn't expose us to any future commitments, doesn't change
> the
> >> language - it's arguably almost a marketing decision.  Similarly, if we
> >> decide to change our release schedule, I don't see why that should
> require
> >> a 2/3 majority.  The 'bias for the status quo', which is the main reason
> > we
> >> have the super majority requirement to begin with, doesn't really play a
> >> role here - as it bears no long term commitment.
> >
> > I'll add my own response here. I agree with Stas that it is preferable to
> > have a single voting procedure and don't think that "packaging decisions"
> > should be special cased. This is not just to in the interest of having
> > simple rules, but also because I disagree with the premise that packaging
> > decisions are somehow less important than changes to PHP or do not have
> > future commitments. For example, extending support for a release by
> > multiple years (a question that will probably come up for PHP 7.4), is a
> > quite serious commitment of resources that should not be decided on a
> > narrow margin.
> >
> > More importantly, while our past RFCs in the area of "packaging" have not
> > been particularly major, that's isn't a property inherent to the
> category.
> > For example, a proposal to introduce regular LTS releases, or to make
> other
> > major changes to our release scheduling, should certainly be subject to a
> > 2/3 majority. In each category (whether it's changes to PHP or the
> release
> > process) there will always be more and less significant RFCs, and it's
> hard
> > to draw a good line between them (we failed spectacularly trying to due
> > that with "language changes"). I think it is better to err on the side of
> > being conservative and require a 2/3 majority for everything, especially
> as
> > it also obviates any arguments as to what requires or doesn't require a
> > certain majority.
>
> First, take the words from this RFC: "Anything merged into php-src is by
> definition a core part of PHP, regardless of the folder it goes into, or
> whether it has direct implications for our users. This is not a
> debatable fact: If it is distributed with PHP, it is core software".
>
> Does this mean that every merge into php-src requires vote?
> If not, why this sentence is here?
>
> Second, many significant internal improvements don't affect PHP behavior
> at all. Usually, they affect just few core developers and few
> third-party extensions maintainers. Should this really require super
> majority of all the voters? Or we can avoid voting, instead?
>
> We currently have voting rules, that more or less work.
>
> In case, anyone like to change them, it would be better to present new
> rules as a "DIFF" on top of existing ones (in the most possible compact,
> clear and formal way). Then we may vote on the whole "DIFF", or each
> change separately.
>
> I wouldn't vote for changes of rules without clear context.
> I hate politics, and wouldn't like to participate in this discussion :(
>

Thanks for the feedback. I have added a new section to the RFC with the
precise change that will be applied to the voting RFC:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins#normative_text

This is the whole change and nothing else will change. It is exclusively
about requiring 2/3 majority for the main RFC vote. It does not change
anything about the kind of changes that need an RFC, and certainly doesn't
require RFCs or votes for every merge... Probably the rest of the RFC text
should also be cleaned up a bit, as I agree that the focus on "merges" is
confusing (not all RFCs even have an implementation at the time of vote.)

Nikita

--0000000000008b83b405813c420f--