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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 12:46:48 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJHtznzQCFboUO0P8h0-x_wC_WRo4daz5OTd9P3EvZBF7EnESw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrey Andreev <narf@devilix.net>
Cc: Dan Ackroyd <Danack@basereality.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008aa5f9058123547c"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: RFC Workflow & Voting (2019 update)
From: zeev@php.net (Zeev Suraski)

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On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 12:09 PM Andrey Andreev <narf@devilix.net> wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:37 AM Zeev Suraski <zeev@php.net> wrote:
> >
> > Regardless of what you did, actually obtaining full voting rights
> > meant you had to ask for a VCS account, and have a reasonably good
> > explanation on why you need one - enough to convince one of the folks
> > with admin rights on master.php.net to click the 'Accept' button.
>
> This is what I don't understand.
>
> On one hand you say one needs to make a convincing enough request, so
> that it may be granted by admins such as yourself. To me, that sounds
> reasonable-ish (with some reserves, but certainly different to yours)
> as I can't imagine that commit access to a project like PHP is handed
> out left and right to anybody who wants it. But in the same breath you
> also say that's a low bar.
>

I see no contradiction between the two.  The approval process for a VCS
account should absolutely not be coupled with the ability to vote.  They
were never intended to be one and the same and they're not supposed to be
based on the currently-approved Voting RFC.  Voting rights actually don't
play a major role in the decision on whether to grant someone a VCS account
- it's predominantly whether the one requesting it would need access to
just one of the PHP repositories (it can also be the php.net website, for
that matter).

Also, to me it does not sound reasonable or even reasonable-ish at all that
any one person - whether they're admin on master.php.net or not - would be
able to grant others with voting rights.


> If that's a low bar (to which I don't agree, but I also don't make
> these decisions so idk), then perhaps the vetting process itself
> should be revised. How can you trust your peers to grant commit
> access, but not a say in how things should go forward? That's a
> contradiction to me.
>

It don't view it as a contradiction.  VCS access is really an
administrative matter of convenience.  You can grant someone access to the
VCS (which again, isn't just for php-src but for many other repositories as
well) - but in terms of what they're allowed to do with this access,
they're still subject to the rules of what they may and may not do.  VCS
access in itself doesn't give anybody any special power, as all changes are
out in the open and virtually all of them are peer reviewed.  If they do
something which they're not supposed to do - it will be reverted.  Coupling
this administrative step with immediate implicit voting rights is not a
matter of convenience, it's a matter of substance.  And it is, indeed, a
way-too-low (and arguably completely nonsensical) bar to clear.

> That's all.  Immediately, one has identical rights to someone who may
> > have been spending years of their time on PHP, in a one way ticket.
> >
>
> There will always be new kids in the block and you have to accept that
> if you want to attract any contributors at all.


Having new kids in the block is crucial, but it does not immediately call
for having an extremely low bar for full voting rights.  We shouldn't
underestimate the attractiveness of having full voting rights on one of
biggest development platforms in the world.  It also goes both ways, if
it's entirely too easy to get voting rights, the value in having them
diminishes.  At the same time - setting a higher bar than the
virtually-non-existent one we have right now may motivate contributors to
contribute a bit more if they want to have a say in the direction the
project takes as a whole.

Zeev

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