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Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 19:35:21 -0400
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To: "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@gmx.de>
Cc: Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com>, "stas@php.net" <stas@php.net>, 
	=?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Larsson?= <bjorn.x.larsson@telia.com>, 
	Dan Ackroyd <danack@basereality.com>, Stanislav Malyshev <smalyshev@gmail.com>, 
	Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Typed Properties
From: pollita@php.net (Sara Golemon)

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:46 PM, Christoph M. Becker <cmbecker69@gmx.de> wro=
te:
> Why should we have 2 additional alphas?  In my opinion, a single
> additional alpha is sufficient, and it is really important not to add
> yet further features.
>
Because in the best case scenario (with a single extra alpha), the RFC
is ready now, and the vote for it opens immediately.  After two weeks,
we get a yes vote and we'll be right on the edge of ready for
FF/beta1.  Adding that fifth alpha gives us breathing room for
something short of idealized circumstances.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:
> First, it may be a personal thing, but I feel that the flexibility toward=
s adding
> this is very contrasty with the inflexibility shown as we headed towards =
the
> PHP 7.0 feature freeze - inflexibility that resulted in a rushed (and IMH=
O wrong)
> decision regarding how to implement the non-strict types.
>
Actually, I think Typed Props are being rushed as well, and I'm not
pleased with it, but I can also see the writing on the wall and want
to minimize the impact of that hurry (hence, pushing the timeline out
rather than having things land weeks into the beta cycle).

>  For the record - as I said back then - I think that the right way is to =
be flexible -
> the dates are just dates, and are - in all honesty - not that important -=
 it=E2=80=99s the severe
> inconsistency that bothers me.
>
I agree that dates are just dates, but blithely eroding the
pre-release cycle without pushing the GA date out isn't saying "dates
are dates", it's saying "RC testing doesn't matter".  I just want 7.3
to get as much baking in time as earlier releases got.

> Secondly, and somewhat related - typed properties isn't a small feature.
> It is, in fact, a pretty huge one.  Making exceptions for a fairly minor =
feature
> or some extra deprecation is one thing.  Making an exception for somethin=
g
> as fundamental as that feels wrong.
>
Agreed, and why I haven't decided on a "yes" vote.  Again, I'm not
pushing for this feature, I'm pushing for our pre-release cycle
suffering as little damage as I can manage to protect it from.

> Even though Nikita's proposal and implementation look pretty solid,
> something as fundamental as that should go through a substantial
> active discussion period (which didn't really happen here as it wasn't
> clear whether this was headed for an exceptional 7.3 addition or not) -
>
I'm working on the assumption that Niki still plans to bring this to
vote.  Perhaps he's decide it needs to wait and this whole discussion
of extra alphas is moot.  That's why I sent an email about the
subject.

> and independently - should perhaps go hand-in-hand with fixing the
> flaws of the non-strict types - something we can do in PHP 8.
> If we do the latter, then perhaps, just perhaps, we can introduce it
> hand-in-hand with typed variables - and if we do, it will be sensible
> to do it at the same time and not in a gradual rollout.
>
And that's a decision we need to make, NOW.  We need to know in the
next 10 days if we're going to move forward with a 7.3 that doesn't
contain TP, or if we're going to push out the betas until we can
solidify it.  Waiting to make that decision is making a decision by
default (almost as bad as making the wrong decision).

> Personally, I think even independently of typed variables, typed properti=
es feel like an 8.0 feature, not a 7.x feature.
>
I probably agree with you on that. (Again, still undecided).

-Sara