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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:08:47 +0300
Message-ID: <CAPhkiZxdVwiEDOW9XZfcADV+o1UC=SG_pc2Nw7NqU1W_gV8bNg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tony Marston <TonyMarston@hotmail.com>
Cc: "internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecate and remove case-insensitive constants?
From: narf@devilix.net (Andrey Andreev)

Hi again,

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Tony Marston <TonyMarston@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Andrey Andreev"  wrote in message
> news:CAPhkiZyXgxi-7vWdqA2hxni9SvycuN_pWOOM8un8mUo5qJ=0jg@mail.gmail.com...
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Tony Marston <TonyMarston@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Far better that that
>>>> problem is taken away from the file system (which should be clean,
>>>> robust
>>>> and
>>>> fast) and if you want case independence put it up at the application
>>>> layer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You try telling that to the billions of Windows users who have been used
>>> to
>>> a case insensitive file system for decades. Not to mention all Microsoft
>>> software which is case insensitive. Try to take that away and billions of
>>> users will be baying for your blood.
>>>
>>
>> Billions? Do we have that statistic available?
>
>
> How many people in the world work with PCs running Microsoft Windows? More
> than those running alternatives.
>

So you admit that you just made up the number?

>> And how many of them have ever encountered case-sensitivity as a concept?
>
>
> None, because they have always used case-insensitive software.
>

And that will not change, regardless of how PHP constants work. Thus,
re-inforcing my point - that you're completely off-topic.

>> Do they all manually type-in filenames that they want to open? If so,
>> do they for some reason name their files in all upper-case, but then
>> type in lower-case while opening?
>
>
> When searching for a file in Windows it is not necessary to now what case it
> was created in. When searching for a word in a file it is not necessary to
> now what case it was created in. TRy taking that ability away from Windows
> users and see what reaction you get.
>

1. Search is a feature that goes way beyond case-sensitivity, and that
was not what I was (rhetorically) asking.
2. Unless Windows users search for filenames matching constants
declared in PHP code, this is irrelevant.

>> Also, are we Microsoft developers? Are we trying to change Windows?
>
>
> No, but you are suggesting a change from being consistent with Windows to
> being inconsistent.
>

It *happens* to be consistent; nobody has ever cared about whether it is or not.
And I am not suggesting anything. I am simply pointing out the
ridiculous false-equivalences you're making.

>> And most importantly: How do everyday Windows users have anything to
>> do with PHP developers?
>
>
> Some people are also Windows users as well as PHP developers, and if those
> people are told that some of the software which they use is now being
> switched from being case-insensitive to case-sensitive just because the
> programmers cannot solve a small problem which only affects a small number
> of character sets, then those people will not be happy. Case-insensitive
> software has been around for decades and is regarded by many users as a
> feature. It that "feature" is broken in a small number of cases then a
> proper programmer would fix that broken feature and not advocate for its
> removal just because it is more convenient than developing a fix.
>

You do realize you just went from comparing "billions" and how
supposedly an overwhelming majority would be upset, to "some people".
And even within that intersection of audiences, you would never be
able to convince anybody here, that for some reason John Doe would
declare a constant as FOO, but then use it as Foo.

I believe I've made my point. Please stop with the non-sense
comparisons, and talk about *constants in PHP*.

Cheers,
Andrey.