Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:100609 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 78355 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2017 08:52:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 15 Sep 2017 08:52:01 -0000 X-Host-Fingerprint: 62.31.75.76 76.75-31-62.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk Received: from [62.31.75.76] ([62.31.75.76:2875] helo=localhost.localdomain) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 1E/C8-19300-EA49BB95 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2017 04:52:00 -0400 Message-ID: <1E.C8.19300.EA49BB95@pb1.pair.com> To: internals@lists.php.net References: <3D.0C.10715.383F8B95@pb1.pair.com> <20b8b6fa-ec81-eba9-d33b-b54b815e9e5d@lsces.co.uk> <88.FC.19300.2418AB95@pb1.pair.com> <20170914133846.GQ8096@phcomp.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20170914133846.GQ8096@phcomp.co.uk> Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 09:51:53 +0100 Lines: 6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3564.1216 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3564.1216 X-Posted-By: 62.31.75.76 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Deprecate and remove case-insensitive constants? From: TonyMarston@hotmail.com ("Tony Marston") "Alain Williams" wrote in message news:20170914133846.GQ8096@phcomp.co.uk... > >On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 02:16:47PM +0100, Tony Marston wrote: > >> A minor detail. Windows followed all the previous OSes which I had >> used in being case insensitive, which makes unix the odd one out. >> Besides there are far more computers running Windows than unix, so >> unixx should not be used as the standard. > >So you want a return to the horrors of code pages in file systems ? I never said that. > Iike how you map lower -> upper depends on how you encode characters. Then use a single UNICODE character set where every character has both an upper and lower case representation. Problem solved. > Far better that that >problem is taken away from the file system (which should be clean, robust >and >fast) and if you want case independence put it up at the application layer. You try telling that to the billions of Windows users who have been used to a case insensitive file system for decades. Not to mention all Microsoft software which is case insensitive. Try to take that away and billions of users will be baying for your blood. >I vote for making it case sensitive: simpler for the parser; the programmer >rapidly learns that it should be 'TRUE' and not 'true' -- job done. > >This is what Javascript does. I don't give two hoots what javascript does. >Many operating systems were case insensitive since your input terminal (eg >AR33 >Teletype) could only generate one case. But in those days it was simple >since >you only had one character set: ASCII or EBCDIC (translation of alphabetics >between the 2 was easy, some others not so, eg: @"\£#). > >> >But the additional problems that case-insensitive then >> >introduces may mean that all case-insensitivity has to be removed at >> >that point? >> >> What additional problems? When billions of people are used to living >> in a case-insensitive world and the only "problems" affect an >> insignificantly small number in an insignificantly small number of >> circumstances then the only proper solution is one that solves the >> problem for the small number without messing it up for the far >> larger number. >That is the sort of mind-set that results in browsers accepting all sort of >broken markup and making guesses on what is intended; different browsers >make >different guesses and render the page differently. The user then blames >browser >X for getting it wrong rather than the incompetent web developer who can't >be >bothered to check that their markup is correct. UNICODE was supposedly invented to deal with all these problems so why doesn't it? Why is it not possible to define an uppercase and lowercase variant of the same character? If the problem lies with an incomplete implementation of UNICODE then that is the problem which should be addressed. Any programmer who says that he doesn't have the brain power to provide a proper solution and proposes instead to remove case insensitivity from the entire universe "because it is more convenient" should hang his head in shame. It is the programmer's job to make things easier and more convenient for the user, not for users to accept what is convenient for the programmers to provide. -- Tony Marston