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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 13:41:09 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+pig-Jq_iF-AhxCC1yhTZhvNQUNzZmDW9u=CrFRzAyOhJq9pw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: External Message: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks
To: Jeffrey Dafoe <JDafoe@fsx.com>, Erick de Azevedo Lima <ericklima.comp@gmail.com>, 
	Robert Landers <landers.robert@gmail.com>, 
	"internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Cc: "autaut03@gmail.com" <autaut03@gmail.com>
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From: mark@itafroma.com (Mark Trapp)

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:59=E2=80=AFAM Jeffrey Dafoe <JDafoe@fsx.com> wrot=
e:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Erick de Azevedo Lima <mailto:e=
ricklima.comp@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for =
a trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could have had less wor=
k to implement and test all the variantes they've done. I think if a person=
 has such numerous concerns, it should be exposed ASAP even if your thought=
s are not
> > totally clear. If you had a chat directly with Ilija/Larry, they would =
be aware of such concerns and would expend efforts to address these concern=
s.
>
> > To an outsider, it looks wild when feedback starts coming in right befo=
re the vote starts. What's even more startling is that there are people wit=
h voting rights who have never participated in the discussion at all, yet h=
ave a right to wordlessly affect the vote's outcome. I sincerely hope Ilija=
 and Larry's work don't
> > go to waste here.
>
> I hope that the property hooks feature goes through. I've used it in C# a=
nd it reads nice and saves time.
>
> Waiting until the last minute to express a significant design disagreemen=
t is disrespectful of the time the RFC authors have spent working on this p=
roposal. It's also counterproductive to the PHP project overall.
>
> -Jeff

Just a friendly reminder that feedback on why people vote against RFCs
has been desperately sought after and requested each time a seemingly
popular RFC is rejected, and the feedback provided by others for this
RFC was done so in good faith, before voting started, allowing the RFC
authors to address said feedback should they choose to acknowledge it.

And in general, the wider PHP community does not pay attention to RFCs
until/unless they come up for a vote.

Admonishing people for providing unexpected or negative feedback will
have a chilling effect for future RFC attempts, as it's much easier to
just silently vote no than to be attacked simply for providing a
dissenting opinion at an inconvenient time.

- Mark