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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 21:51:36 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC[ Property accessor hooks, take 2
To: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>
Cc: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: kontakt@beberlei.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Benjamin_Au=C3=9Fenhofer?=)

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Hey,


On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 7:58=E2=80=AFPM Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.=
com>
wrote:

> Hello again, fine Internalians.
>
> After much on-again/off-again work, Ilija and I are back with a more
> polished property access hooks/interface properties RFC.  It=E2=80=99s 99=
%
> unchanged from last summer; the PR is now essentially complete and more
> robust, and we were able to squish the last remaining edge cases.
>
> Baring any major changes, we plan to bring this to a vote in mid-March.
>
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks
>
> It=E2=80=99s long, but that=E2=80=99s because we=E2=80=99re handling ever=
y edge case we could
> think of.  Properties involve dealing with both references and inheritanc=
e,
> both of which have complex implications.  We believe we=E2=80=99ve identi=
fied the
> most logical handling for all cases, though.
>
> Note the FAQ question at the end, which explains some design choices.
>
> There=E2=80=99s one outstanding question, which is slightly painful to as=
k:
> Originally, this RFC was called =E2=80=9Cproperty accessors,=E2=80=9D whi=
ch is the
> terminology used by most languages.  During early development, when we ha=
d
> 4 accessors like Swift, we changed the name to =E2=80=9Chooks=E2=80=9D to=
 better indicate
> that one was =E2=80=9Chooking into=E2=80=9D the property lifecycle.  Howe=
ver, later
> refinement brought it back down to 2 operations, get and set.  That makes
> the =E2=80=9Chooks=E2=80=9D name less applicable, and inconsistent with w=
hat other
> languages call it.
>
> However, changing it back at this point would be a non-small amount of
> grunt work. There would be no functional changes from doing so, but it=E2=
=80=99s
> lots of renaming things both in the PR and the RFC. We are willing to do =
so
> if the consensus is that it would be beneficial, but want to ask before
> putting in the effort.


thank you for this proposal. there are some points i'd like to make into
this discussion:

* Thank you for the removal of $field, it was non-idomatic from a PHP POV.

* I would prefer that the short syntax $foo =3D> null; be voted upon
separately. Personally I think it could be confusing and is too close to a
regular assignment for default value and I prefer not to have it and keep
the rest of the RFC.

* The magic of detecting if a property is virtual or backed is - like Rowan
said - subtle. I would also prefer this to be managed via an explicit
mechanism, by for example keywording the property as "virtual", instead of
the implicit way with the parsing based detection.

* As Doctrine project maintainer, we have had some troubles supporting read
only properties for proxies. I would have hoped that with hooks I can
overwrite a readonly property and "hook" into it instead by defining a
getter, but "no setter". From my read of the RFC this would not be allowed
and throws a compile time error. Could you maybe clarify why at least this
special case is not possible? I didn't immediately get it from the RFC
section on readonly as it only speaks about the problems in abstract.

greetings
Benjamin


>
> --
>   Larry Garfield
>   larry@garfieldtech.com
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On We=
d, Feb 21, 2024 at 7:58=E2=80=AFPM Larry Garfield &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lar=
ry@garfieldtech.com" target=3D"_blank">larry@garfieldtech.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello again, fine Internalians.<br>
<br>
After much on-again/off-again work, Ilija and I are back with a more polish=
ed property access hooks/interface properties RFC.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s 99% u=
nchanged from last summer; the PR is now essentially complete and more robu=
st, and we were able to squish the last remaining edge cases.<br>
<br>
Baring any major changes, we plan to bring this to a vote in mid-March.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks</a><br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s long, but that=E2=80=99s because we=E2=80=99re handling every =
edge case we could think of.=C2=A0 Properties involve dealing with both ref=
erences and inheritance, both of which have complex implications.=C2=A0 We =
believe we=E2=80=99ve identified the most logical handling for all cases, t=
hough.<br>
<br>
Note the FAQ question at the end, which explains some design choices.<br>
<br>
There=E2=80=99s one outstanding question, which is slightly painful to ask:=
 Originally, this RFC was called =E2=80=9Cproperty accessors,=E2=80=9D whic=
h is the terminology used by most languages.=C2=A0 During early development=
, when we had 4 accessors like Swift, we changed the name to =E2=80=9Chooks=
=E2=80=9D to better indicate that one was =E2=80=9Chooking into=E2=80=9D th=
e property lifecycle.=C2=A0 However, later refinement brought it back down =
to 2 operations, get and set.=C2=A0 That makes the =E2=80=9Chooks=E2=80=9D =
name less applicable, and inconsistent with what other languages call it.<b=
r>
<br>
However, changing it back at this point would be a non-small amount of grun=
t work. There would be no functional changes from doing so, but it=E2=80=99=
s lots of renaming things both in the PR and the RFC. We are willing to do =
so if the consensus is that it would be beneficial, but want to ask before =
putting in the effort.</blockquote><div><div><br></div><div>thank you for t=
his proposal. there are some points i&#39;d like to make into this discussi=
on:</div></div><div><br></div><div>* Thank you for the removal of $field, i=
t was non-idomatic from a PHP POV.</div><div><br></div><div>* I would prefe=
r that the short syntax $foo =3D&gt; null; be voted upon separately. Person=
ally I think it could be confusing and is too close to a regular assignment=
 for default value and I prefer not to have it and keep the rest of the RFC=
.</div><div><br></div><div>* The magic of detecting if a property is virtua=
l or backed is - like Rowan said - subtle. I would also prefer this to be m=
anaged via an explicit mechanism, by for example keywording the property as=
 &quot;virtual&quot;, instead of the implicit way with the parsing based de=
tection.</div><div><br></div><div>* As Doctrine project maintainer, we have=
 had some troubles supporting read only properties for proxies. I would hav=
e hoped that with hooks I can overwrite a readonly property and &quot;hook&=
quot; into it instead by defining a getter, but &quot;no setter&quot;. From=
 my read of the RFC this would not be allowed and throws a compile time err=
or. Could you maybe clarify why at least this special case is not possible?=
 I didn&#39;t immediately get it from the RFC section on readonly as it onl=
y speaks about the problems in abstract.</div><div><br></div><div>greetings=
</div><div>Benjamin</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:=
solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- <br>
=C2=A0 Larry Garfield<br>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:larry@garfieldtech.com" target=3D"_blank">larry@ga=
rfieldtech.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div>

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